The Devil-Thoth

Hispet

I finally decided buckle down and learn the Thoth. I am starting with one card readings until I get the hang of it. I asked what someone's feelings were and I got The Devil. It's very difficult not to fall onto the Rider Waite meanings! So immediately when I saw the card I thought okay so this person has strong feelings of sexually attraction, maybe he feels that I am taboo to him. Or there could be issues of codependency playing a part in the relationship. Am I reading this correctly? On another note, Lust was at the bottom of the deck.
 

Snaut

Hi Hispet,
you managed to draw one of my favorite cards.
The RW-Devil is pretty much the Christian worldview that there is some external entity sitting on a throne and getting people to do bad things.
The Thoth-devil is the devil in all of us. Each of us has an intrinsic devil-aspect who wants to manipulate and suppress others (see the persons in the right testicle. (Male) sexuality can be a part or a tool in this manipulative process
 

Hispet

It seems though that Crowley thinks that this is a part of our nature that we need to embrace and not view as negative. So in that case he has natural feelings of lust and desire? Maybe he does feel the need to control and manipulate, but that's just part of his baser instincts, because we as humans want to have our way, and to us sometimes the end justifies the means. Or am I way off base here?
 

Barleywine

Over a long period of time, I worked my way backward through the popular perceptions (and layered misconceptions) about this card, dispensing with all the psychological clap-trap that's grown up around it to arrive at Crowley's core idea: "This card represents creative energy in its most material form." He talks about Saturn making for selfhood and perpetuity, and the exaltation of Mars "showing in its best form the fiery, material energy of creation." The image on the card suggests that he had unsentimental "procreation" on his mind, but that doesn't degrade the clarity and simplicity of his original vision. He does go on to say that "the complete appreciation of all existing things" encompasses the "naturally repugnant" as well as the sublime, but as a "blind impulse," the Devil makes no ethical distinction. Ordinary human morality doesn't seem to be high on Crowley's list of considerations for this card, other than implying that "the lust for result" common to our baser sexual compulsions plays no part in its proper expression. Perhaps the "lustful goat" idea and religious conceptions of the Devil have irretrievably tainted our opinions of this card? It seems to be more about pursuing natural creative urges unencumbered by sanctimonious value judgments than about any kind of maliciously manipulative coercion. I'd say the flaw is in the eye of the beholder.
 

ravenest

Hi Hispet,
you managed to draw one of my favorite cards.
The RW-Devil is pretty much the Christian worldview that there is some external entity sitting on a throne and getting people to do bad things.
The Thoth-devil is the devil in all of us. Each of us has an intrinsic devil-aspect who wants to manipulate and suppress others (see the persons in the right testicle. (Male) sexuality can be a part or a tool in this manipulative process

^ seems like the RW Devil as well. My 'Thoth devil' wants to liberate and free people, to lead them to initiation / individuation and the mysteries of nature.
 

ravenest

It seems though that Crowley thinks that this is a part of our nature that we need to embrace and not view as negative. So in that case he has natural feelings of lust and desire? Maybe he does feel the need to control and manipulate, but that's just part of his baser instincts, because we as humans want to have our way, and to us sometimes the end justifies the means. Or am I way off base here?

I agree that it seems part of human nature to 'feel the need to control and manipulate' , but this need not be only part of the baser instincts .... think of science ... even , magick . I am not sure if the devil represents that part of human nature. As 'Pan' (read the Book of Thoth about the Devil so you understand Crowley's intentions with this symbolism) he is entirely different, and the 'fear' of the devil, and the 'fear' of nature are things that beset modern man.

In ways, Atu XV can seem the opposite, its more about nature and natural law. Pan is the God of nature, I dont see him as some part of human nature that is separated off and given a separate existence .... seeing Pan as a part of human nature is far too restrictive.

Lust and desire ? Maybe , noting more natural than that , especially in springtime. But 'Lust' , remember, 'Thelemically' is also a different concept.

" The formula of this card is then the complete appreciation of all existing things. He rejoices in the rugged and the barren no less than in the smooth and the fertile. All things equally exalt him. He represents the finding of ecstasy in every phenomenon, however naturally repugnant; he transcends all limitations; he is Pan; he is All."

That old Christian / RW devil seems pretty entrenched ... still ! Thats okay if it suits you better, but maybe those ideas are best applied to the RW and Christian 'ethics' based decks ?
 

ravenest

Over a long period of time, I worked my way backward through the popular perceptions (and layered misconceptions) about this card, dispensing with all the psychological clap-trap that's grown up around it to arrive at Crowley's core idea: "This card represents creative energy in its most material form." He talks about Saturn making for selfhood and perpetuity, and the exaltation of Mars "showing in its best form the fiery, material energy of creation." The image on the card suggests that he had unsentimental "procreation" on his mind, but that doesn't degrade the clarity and simplicity of his original vision. He does go on to say that "the complete appreciation of all existing things" encompasses the "naturally repugnant" as well as the sublime, but as a "blind impulse," the Devil makes no ethical distinction. Ordinary human morality doesn't seem to be high on Crowley's list of considerations for this card, other than implying that "the lust for result" common to our baser sexual compulsions plays no part in its proper expression. Perhaps the "lustful goat" idea and religious conceptions of the Devil have irretrievably tainted our opinions of this card? It seems to be more about pursuing natural creative urges unencumbered by sanctimonious value judgments than about any kind of maliciously manipulative coercion. I'd say the flaw is in the eye of the beholder.

;)


(nice post :thumbsup:)
 

Zephyros

;)


(nice post :thumbsup:)

I agree, I couldn't have said it better myself. I wonder, though, why didn't Crowley change the name of this card as he did with others? This is clearly not the old Aeon Devil and it isn't even the rather modified Golden Dawn variation on the idea. The very name stirs up wrong ideas, it is antithetical to its essence.
 

smw

Maybe he does feel the need to control and manipulate, but that's just part of his baser instincts, because we as humans want to have our way, and to us sometimes the end justifies the means. Or am I way off base here?

Hi Hispet

I don't really see the Thoth Devil being about control or manipulation. I might think about a possible lack of discipline and even recklessness with the highly creative and sexual energies of the card. As it does not indicate to me consideration of outcomes or consequences, (it is what it is) that might suggest relationship(s) concerns are not going to be a priority.

Eta... I wonder if thoughts of control might relate to the dynamic of the relationship. (Or potential one). Snuffin comments on the Devil card that "It symbolises the sexual attraction and arousal that 'compels' us to form relationships and procreate"
 

Aeon418

The very name stirs up wrong ideas, it is antithetical to its essence.
That's one reason why the name is perfect and should be left alone. So long as you're 'chained' to the old idea of the Devil he remains the Dweller on the Threshold and the scapegoat onto which fears and anxieties are projected.
Aleister Crowley said:
The world of Magic is a mirror, wherein who sees muck is muck.