Waite/Smith Deserve More Credit

Everybody speaks of the of the 'veils' Waite put into the deck; I don't see it that way though. To me it is extremely well balanced. You can see Waite's personal reading in the cards artwork and imagery. However, by making them less 'in your face'; in my opinion he managed to stay within the traditional framework while keeping the traditional interpretations. This means that if one choose to read the card in an alternative or traditional manner, you do not have to perform mental acrobatics to make the card work! While also getting the esoteric is you know what you are looking for. Of course, if you did not have an interest in such thing it would not matter much anyway!

Although I personally do not like this deck I do have to admire the approach the creators took when making it. What is your view? Do you see it similarly, or would you rather have it in plain sight?

I prefer the subtle presentation of occult symbolism in the Waite, which allows for more traditional tarot imagery. It is not an abrupt break with tradition, but rather an extension thereof, whereas the Thoth might be unrecognizable as tarot were it not for the card titles. Truth be known, I have been using mostly the Marseille for the past few months. Most of the occult meaning is there, in embryo, which is largely what inspired the esoteric decks produced since the beginning of the 20th century, most notably the Waite.

I really want to like the Marseilles deck, but for me it just isn't exciting enough.

Pythagoras 1/10 said:

I really want to like the Marseilles deck, but for me it just isn't exciting enough.

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I understand.

If you can put most of your esoteric expectation aside, even if just as an exercise, you might find that each of the Marseilles figures (especially in one of the restored decks like the Noblet) is brimming full of fresh enthusiasm. Is this all down to entrepreneurial moxie, the anticipation of game-play and risk, deep pre-conscious motivators, or the beauty of the human record laid bare before you? Who knows.

My last thought, this excitement you speak of, must come from within you--the deck is just a pack of pasteboard.

CED

Moderator Note

Before we go too far down this road, please remember that this is the Rider-Waite-Smith forum and all discussion here should be about the deck or its creators. There are other forums within the Tarot Special Interest sub-forum to discuss the other major schools of Tarot.

Pythagoras 1/10 said:

I really want to like the Marseilles deck, but for me it just isn't exciting enough.

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Does that also explain why you don't like the Waite? I don't see much difference in excitement level between the Waite and the TdM.

Pythagoras 1/10 said:

Everybody speaks of the of the 'veils' Waite put into the deck; I don't see it that way though. To me it is extremely well balanced. You can see Waite's personal reading in the cards artwork and imagery. However, by making them less 'in your face'; in my opinion he managed to stay within the traditional framework while keeping the traditional interpretations. This means that if one choose to read the card in an alternative or traditional manner, you do not have to perform mental acrobatics to make the card work! While also getting the esoteric is you know what you are looking for. Of course, if you did not have an interest in such thing it would not matter much anyway!

Although I personally do not like this deck I do have to admire the approach the creators took when making it. What is your view? Do you see it similarly, or would you rather have it in plain sight?

Click to expand...

One's understanding of occult meaning depends a lot on background, education and personal perspective and experience. There are different kinds of "occult" too

I had little conscious idea of the occult when I started using tarot cards. I began with a few simple books and my journey slowly progressed.

The same approach can apply to the Marseille. If you want to explore get a deck which appeals and have a go. I think that Lee Bursten has written a very good book on how to understand the Marseille.

I am not sure what you mean by Waite staying within the traditional framework. I think he and Pamela Coleman Smith did break new ground in tarot, simply through their version of illustrated pips, although some of the RWS images are a direct take from the Sola Busca.

I am not a history expert, however, and will quietly withdraw now .

But I would love to see you enjoy a Marseille deck in your own time. There are some beauties like the Isis Marseille which comes with a good companion manual. It is also available in an iPhone app.

I have just seen LIttle Richard's scan and see the parallels in terms of the major arcana.

Told you my sense of history around tarot was not the best

LRichard said:

Does that also explain why you don't like the Waite? I don't see much difference in excitement level between the Waite and the TdM.

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Pretty much. Although I do find the rws more appealing than the Marseilles deck. So far I have only seen images online, but I have ordered the thoth deck. Thoth, along with the hermetic tarot and haindl deck seem to be bursting with life! In comparison the rws and Marseilles seems more emotionally distant. If that makes sense and not the ramblings of a person who appears to think cards are alive and have emotions lol. Sorry, I could't think of a better way to describe it haha.

Pythagoras 1/10 said:

Pretty much. Although I do find the rws more appealing than the Marseilles deck. So far I have only seen images online, but I have ordered the thoth deck. Thoth, along with the hermetic tarot and haindl deck seem to be bursting with life! In comparison the rws and Marseilles seems more emotionally distant......

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Indeed, the artistic style of the newer decks is more fluid and dynamic than that of the Waite and earlier decks. It is a matter of taste, just as I may prefer the Waite because of its more subtle presentation of esoteric imagery, rather than the in-your-face Hebrew letters and astrological glyphs incorporated into the more recent decks. There's nothing inherently wrong with the latter, but once it has been internalized, there's no need to have it cluttering up the imagery of the card.