History of the Piatnik Zigeuner deck

Seaqueen

Gipsy Zigeuner

moderndayruth said:
Seaqueen, i inherited the same deck from my grandmother :)

Love,
Lena Ruth
Is your deck in color or a soft bluish shade? I wonder if any of the museums in Europe would have earlier cards as they do with the beginning of Tarot?

To me -it may remain a gipsy mystery. But I will continue to investigate until I find some reasonable linkage as they have with the Tarot in the museums.
Perhaps a totally romantic theory but maybe the King or Queen of a certain gipsy clan commissioned an artist within that clan. ha-ha. Sounds like the makings of a movie. ha-ha
 

Seaqueen

To me -it may remain a gipsy mystery.
Hi All: I revisited this 5 year old thread when I saw it in one of my google searches and was curious what was on my mind at time interacting on this thread.

There is a history to everything. Thanks to the help of google power searching many old books can now be reviewed in just about any language.

And speaking of the Lenormand cards look what has evolved over the last few years. New decks, English books etc. I really hope this deck does not experience what the Tarot did.

Believe it or not I am still searching for the numbered Zigeuener Wahrsagekarten 4 language deck which my aunt sent me decades ago.
 

Cerulean

Thanks for revisiting this

I am reading a history of Russian divination from the 1700s. The information is
Fascinating...especially the diverse number of cards. The Russian divination fans imported Western playing card and fortune telling games...the folklore speculation is as fascinating as historical ideas.

It seems French Lenormand appeal was quite popular in the mid 1800s and priior to that cards of various fortunetelling sets, 32, 36, 52 became more standardized after Lenormand popularity. I was very interested in the suggestion these were parlor games more geared to ladies, as men seemed to use cards more for gambling.

I need to read more as to how specific German fortune sets might have been used and imported to Russia and also need to peek at Depaulis, Decker and Dummett, for more specific notes to add here.

More later....
 

ZelEl

Gypsy Cards History ...

A year ago my partner and I wrote a book in Serbian language about Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards. And just about month ago I published the English version of the named book: "Gypsy Cards in a New Light."

In my introduction in the book, I also had a problem regarding the history of this fine deck. I contacted Piatnik company, and they gave me the permission to use their deck in my book, but they could not help me with the information about the origins and history of the Gypsy Cards deck.

So, my subjective conclusion, which is part of the Introduction follows:

"Literature on the subject of Gypsy cards is almost nonexistent (territory of the former Yugoslavia). At the end of the book, where you would expect to see the list of literary works that we used, you will find nothing. So far, we have encountered one handbook for interpreting Gypsy cards (Stela Look, Priručnik za sudbinske karte (Handbook for Destiny Cards), Zagreb 2010, 70 pages) and one book (Esther Gombor, Fortune Telling with Gypsy Cards). They are the only available pieces of literature known to us. We did not have an opportunity to read any of these two works. Since we were not able to use other works on this subject, everything you can find in this book is the result of effort and creativity of the authors. A small part of the material was transferred to us verbally, and we ourselves conceptualized everything else. Therefore, it represents the product of our research and many years of work.
Although Gypsy cards have been present for many years, we have not been able to find reliable information on their origin. We even wrote to “Piatnik,” the company that manufactures the original cards of the Gypsy deck, asking them to provide us an insight in the history of their creation, but they also were not able to help us find more pieces of information. However, they were kind enough to allow us to use the pictures of the original cards, and we use this opportunity to thank them kindly. Anyway, we do not know almost anything about the history of cards. We even do not have any data on who the author is, when they were created, or how they ended up in this part of the world. On the basis of the images presented on the cards, we can conclude that the period of their creation was the second half of the 19th century. Of course, this does not mean that we are certainly right. Kipper cards and Madam Van Helsing deck are also decks from a similar era. The former contains 36, and the latter 52 cards. The former originates from Germany and the latter from Italy. The former uses the terms identical with the Gypsy deck, only the pictures are different, while the latter contains some new additional terms. We would also like to mention Lenormand cards, and the fact that there are allegations that the Gypsy deck is their copy, in which we are not very convinced. We would like this book to reach the hands of people who have accurate information on the origin of the deck, so that some of them could contact us and present genuine information. If that happens, we will find a way to share it with you.
You can perceive that the motives on the card pictures have nothing to do with the Gypsy people. You can also perceive that, in the card pictures, most people are dressed in the way which exudes the atmosphere of a European metropolis at the end of the nineteenth century. Therefore, we assume that the author of the cards was a city gentleman or lady. The clothing, uniforms and buildings in the pictures are typical of and indicate to Central or Western Europe. We would say that the country of origin of these cards is Austria, or perhaps Hungary. The fact that the company which manufactures the cards is from Austria, and that Ferdinand Piatnik, the man who established the company, was born in Budapest, and also the card pictures lead us to that conclusion. Take a look at the way of dressing in Austria and Hungary at the end of the nineteenth century, and you will understand everything. At the time, it was one country, Austria-Hungary.
The capital city, Vienna, is especially interesting, known for gentlemen, waltzes and refined manners, but on the other hand, it was also known for a large number of Gypsies who lived in the suburbs or just passed through the city. Nowadays, the situation is similar. It is very likely that a gentleman or lady from Austria-Hungary created these cards in Vienna in the second half of the nineteenth century, not even dreaming that they would appeal to the Gypsies, who had fortune-telling and auguring in their blood. The cards became a tool for their work. Thus, the traveling Gypsy women, fortune-telling at fairs, interpreting cards at squares and in the streets, made this deck famous in Central and Western Europe, and then it reached the farthest corners of the world. These women passed on from generation to generation their skills of card arrangement and interpretation, and they also passed it on to the people they chose. However, the author had to give up on popularity in favor of the Gypsies. It is no longer his/her deck, but the Gypsy deck for fortune-telling. The name “Gypsy cards” has remained and it lasts. Unfortunately, no one knows about the ingenious author of the cards. On this occasion, we would like to express our deep gratitude to him or her, and we hope that someday we will find out his or her honorable name, or perhaps the names of people who also participated in the creation of the Gypsy deck. Thank you, the unknown author, for creating the cards, but also thank you, the Gypsies, for bringing them to us."
 

Seaqueen

A year ago my partner and I wrote a book in Serbian language about Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards. And just about month ago I published the English version of the named book: "Gypsy Cards in a New Light."

In my introduction in the book, I also had a problem regarding the history of this fine deck. I contacted Piatnik company, and they gave me the permission to use their deck in my book, but they could not help me with the information about the origins and history of the Gypsy Cards deck.

So, my subjective conclusion, which is part of the Introduction follows:

"Literature on the subject of Gypsy cards is almost nonexistent (territory of the former Yugoslavia). At the end of the book, where you would expect to see the list of literary works that we used, you will find nothing. So far, we have encountered one handbook for interpreting Gypsy cards (Stela Look, Priručnik za sudbinske karte (Handbook for Destiny Cards), Zagreb 2010, 70 pages) and one book (Esther Gombor, Fortune Telling with Gypsy Cards). They are the only available pieces of literature known to us. We did not have an opportunity to read any of these two works. Since we were not able to use other works on this subject, everything you can find in this book is the result of effort and creativity of the authors. A small part of the material was transferred to us verbally, and we ourselves conceptualized everything else. Therefore, it represents the product of our research and many years of work.
Although Gypsy cards have been present for many years, we have not been able to find reliable information on their origin. We even wrote to “Piatnik,” the company that manufactures the original cards of the Gypsy deck, asking them to provide us an insight in the history of their creation, but they also were not able to help us find more pieces of information. However, they were kind enough to allow us to use the pictures of the original cards, and we use this opportunity to thank them kindly. Anyway, we do not know almost anything about the history of cards. We even do not have any data on who the author is, when they were created, or how they ended up in this part of the world. On the basis of the images presented on the cards, we can conclude that the period of their creation was the second half of the 19th century. Of course, this does not mean that we are certainly right. Kipper cards and Madam Van Helsing deck are also decks from a similar era. The former contains 36, and the latter 52 cards. The former originates from Germany and the latter from Italy. The former uses the terms identical with the Gypsy deck, only the pictures are different, while the latter contains some new additional terms. We would also like to mention Lenormand cards, and the fact that there are allegations that the Gypsy deck is their copy, in which we are not very convinced. We would like this book to reach the hands of people who have accurate information on the origin of the deck, so that some of them could contact us and present genuine information. If that happens, we will find a way to share it with you.
You can perceive that the motives on the card pictures have nothing to do with the Gypsy people. You can also perceive that, in the card pictures, most people are dressed in the way which exudes the atmosphere of a European metropolis at the end of the nineteenth century. Therefore, we assume that the author of the cards was a city gentleman or lady. The clothing, uniforms and buildings in the pictures are typical of and indicate to Central or Western Europe. We would say that the country of origin of these cards is Austria, or perhaps Hungary. The fact that the company which manufactures the cards is from Austria, and that Ferdinand Piatnik, the man who established the company, was born in Budapest, and also the card pictures lead us to that conclusion. Take a look at the way of dressing in Austria and Hungary at the end of the nineteenth century, and you will understand everything. At the time, it was one country, Austria-Hungary.
The capital city, Vienna, is especially interesting, known for gentlemen, waltzes and refined manners, but on the other hand, it was also known for a large number of Gypsies who lived in the suburbs or just passed through the city. Nowadays, the situation is similar. It is very likely that a gentleman or lady from Austria-Hungary created these cards in Vienna in the second half of the nineteenth century, not even dreaming that they would appeal to the Gypsies, who had fortune-telling and auguring in their blood. The cards became a tool for their work. Thus, the traveling Gypsy women, fortune-telling at fairs, interpreting cards at squares and in the streets, made this deck famous in Central and Western Europe, and then it reached the farthest corners of the world. These women passed on from generation to generation their skills of card arrangement and interpretation, and they also passed it on to the people they chose. However, the author had to give up on popularity in favor of the Gypsies. It is no longer his/her deck, but the Gypsy deck for fortune-telling. The name “Gypsy cards” has remained and it lasts. Unfortunately, no one knows about the ingenious author of the cards. On this occasion, we would like to express our deep gratitude to him or her, and we hope that someday we will find out his or her honorable name, or perhaps the names of people who also participated in the creation of the Gypsy deck. Thank you, the unknown author, for creating the cards, but also thank you, the Gypsies, for bringing them to us."

Thank you very much for this information. I have run into similar roadblocks in my research. Is your English book available to North America? My knowledge was passed down by a relative and as yourself my findings are through trial and error. I am absolutely attracted to the mystique of the Ciganske karte and have studied them over 40 years. I have an original black and white deck my aunt sent to me from Slovenia may decades ago. This deck is numbered ... a rare find I must say, unfortunately 3 cards became missing when I loaned the deck to someone. The images on the deck do speak for themselves and the cards speak differently to everyone. Seaqueen
 

MissNine

Is your deck in color or a soft bluish shade? I wonder if any of the museums in Europe would have earlier cards as they do with the beginning of Tarot?

To me -it may remain a gipsy mystery. But I will continue to investigate until I find some reasonable linkage as they have with the Tarot in the museums.
Perhaps a totally romantic theory but maybe the King or Queen of a certain gipsy clan commissioned an artist within that clan. ha-ha. Sounds like the makings of a movie. ha-ha

Hi Seaqueen. Did you happen to find anything on the bluish, 4-language deck? Have you located it? I speak a bit of German and just ordered a deck of Piatnik Wahrsage cards. The gypsy cards were made about the same time as the kippers, I believe. Here's a link to a German site with images of a ton of fortune telling decks.

http://www.tarotwelten.de/wahrsage.html

I think that while gypsies were traveling through the Austro-Hungarian empire (I'm also of a family that stems from the area, most gypsies would say they were from the east or just say gypsy, if anything at all. From what my mom told me, a band of gypsies would roll on through towns and keep moving after a while.

There's a man in Berlin who is of gypsy decent. Youve probably heard of him. His name is Malkiel Rouven and his videos are on you tube. He speaks German and English and reads Kippers, gypsies, and lenormand, as well as has his own deck. He might just have the information on deck history that you're seeking. With a shot. I also have a picture of a blue piatnik deck with 4 languages that I found on the internet. Is that what you have?
 

Seaqueen

Hi Seaqueen. Did you happen to find anything on the bluish, 4-language deck? Have you located it? I speak a bit of German and just ordered a deck of Piatnik Wahrsage cards. The gypsy cards were made about the same time as the kippers, I believe. Here's a link to a German site with images of a ton of fortune telling decks.

http://www.tarotwelten.de/wahrsage.html

I think that while gypsies were traveling through the Austro-Hungarian empire (I'm also of a family that stems from the area, most gypsies would say they were from the east or just say gypsy, if anything at all. From what my mom told me, a band of gypsies would roll on through towns and keep moving after a while.

There's a man in Berlin who is of gypsy decent. Youve probably heard of him. His name is Malkiel Rouven and his videos are on you tube. He speaks German and English and reads Kippers, gypsies, and lenormand, as well as has his own deck. He might just have the information on deck history that you're seeking. With a shot. I also have a picture of a blue piatnik deck with 4 languages that I found on the internet. Is that what you have?
Thank you. Yes, I am a fan of Malkiel's teachings and his super video presentations. No, I have not found any information on the b/w (light blue) copy of the gipsy cards. They were manufactured in small lots a long time before the mass production. The images have not changed much at all. Please send me the link that you found so that I could compare decks. Thanks again. Madame Seaqueen
 

MissNine

M Seaqueen,
Sorry I am late in the reply. I've been kicked in the face with allergies this week!

Had you posted a picture of the cards from your family? I'm not sure which deck of Zigeuners you're referring to. But, if it's a 4 language deck with blue and white cards, then it's probably the first edition of Piatnik's from the 30s, I believe. There's an Australian site called "The World of Playing Cards" that shows a picture of one, with a short history on them. Also beautiful pictures of other Zigeuner decks from history.

http://www.wopc.co.uk/tarot/austrian-cartomancy-decks.html

Let me know if that's the one. I'm waiting on my deck of Piatniks to come in still! They're so pretty!
 

Seaqueen

M Seaqueen,
Sorry I am late in the reply. I've been kicked in the face with allergies this week!

Had you posted a picture of the cards from your family? I'm not sure which deck of Zigeuners you're referring to. But, if it's a 4 language deck with blue and white cards, then it's probably the first edition of Piatnik's from the 30s, I believe. There's an Australian site called "The World of Playing Cards" that shows a picture of one, with a short history on them. Also beautiful pictures of other Zigeuner decks from history.

http://www.wopc.co.uk/tarot/austrian-cartomancy-decks.html

Let me know if that's the one. I'm waiting on my deck of Piatniks to come in still! They're so pretty!
Thank you for your reply.
I wanted to share some information on a question I asked way back in 2007 about the Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten (times flies). The Gipsy cards have been traced back to the 1860's Austrian Sibilla deck. A little bit of that mystery I spoke of has been solved.

For those of you interested in seeing a few of the cards here is the link.
http://www.fortune-telling-cards.com/antique-austrian-sibilla-cards.html

The very first time I ever saw the Gipsy cards was 44 years ago when a local gypsy woman (relative by marriage) read my coffee ground & the cards in Slovenia (former Yugoslavia then). The card images have not changed much. Everything she told me came true and she told me lots of other things about the cards as well.
 

swinkelp

Etteilla as possible source?

Hi all,

If you've read Etteilla's book "Etteilla, ou la seule manière de tirer les cartes" (1773), you will notice that a lot of the names/meanings he assigns to a standard piquet deck of cards map to the titles used in what we now call "gipsy" or "sibylle" cards. Also the "Livre du Destin" uses these titles.

Some examples:

Etteilla 10 of spades "Jalousie => Gipsy "Jealousy"
Etteilla 9 of spades "Prêtre" => Gipsy "Ecclesiastic"
Etteilla 10 of clubs "Maison" = Gipsy "House"
Etteilla 8 of diamonds reversed "Chagrin" => Gipsy "Anger"
Etteilla King of spades reversed = "Homme veuf" => Gipsy "Widower"
Etteilla pair of 8 of clubs with king of diamonds = "Voleur" => Gipsy "Thief"

etc.

I can only imagine that card manufacturers thought that the system using images would be more user-friendly than remembering all the meanings that Etteilla assigned to a standard deck of cards.
Just like a Rider-Waite Tarot deck with illustrated pips reads more comfortably than one without illustrated pips...

It is a tradition completely different from Lenormand cards (which use emblems derived from the coffee cards)!

Since Etteilla assigned 4 meanings to each card (2 upright, 2 reversed), and an additional set of 15 "rencontres" (specific pairs of cards), and 32 meanings if next to the "carte blanche" (consultant), it is not hard to get 52 titles for a complete sibylle deck!

Just my 2 cents on this topic.

Best regards,
Patrick