Tarot Association of the British Isles - courses

Macavity

(Sorry) I guess I used the word "proscribe" in a JOCULAR vein - Recalling suffererings of school Latin lessons, where sundry "Ancients being proscribed", seemed to be an occupational hazard? (For them, anyway)! But simply TABI (perhaps) being "denounced" over the specific endorsement issue? I see the word itself might also mean "outlawed" etc. But I too doubt that is (yet) true...

pro·scribe (pr-skrb)
tr.v. pro·scribed, pro·scrib·ing, pro·scribes
1. To denounce or condemn.
2. To prohibit; forbid. See Synonyms at forbid.
3.
a. To banish or outlaw (a person).
b. To publish the name of (a person) as outlawed.

Major Tom

*Sigh*

I must stress that I am not ‘picking on’ TABI. I like all the good work they do and every member I’ve met is a lovely person.

If someone you liked were hurting themselves and others around them, yet refused to accept that they were, wouldn’t you keep on at them about it? It is in precisely that spirit that I pursue this issue.

My comments about the harm the TABI endorsement scheme causes apply equally to all tarot certification/endorsement schemes.

I do not understand the objection to calling the endorsement scheme training. Something of value must pass between mentor and candidate during the 25 emails. I would call that thing of value learning. Aren’t schemes that involve learning by candidates called training?

Mr. & Mrs. Fairgoer wandering ‘round and ‘round the venue examining each of the two tarot readers present. Finally, unable to make up their minds Mrs. Fairgoer says, “let’s go with the endorsed one, at least that way we know what we’re getting.’

The whole point is they do not know what they are getting.

And the reader displaying the endorsement certificate provided by TABI is committing a falsehood by claiming that a tarot reading can be certified or endorsed to a certain standard. As an organisation, TABI do the same by only allowing endorsed readers at their events and publicising the fact that they ‘are making a statement’ with the endorsement scheme. This furthers the falsehood in the public mind that tarot reading can be standardised and may one day perhaps lead to official regulation.

And the reader that wasn’t selected, but overheard the exchange? She’s left wondering if she shouldn’t get some kind of certificate too. And in many cases she does, thus perpetuating the falsehood.

I see nothing at all wrong with training schemes. I understand people like to have pride in their accomplishments. It’s wonderful to say, “I undertook such and such a course as part of my own self-development.”

It’s an entirely different matter when that turns into, “I took part in the scheme and it made me better than anyone who hasn’t.” TABI has members who do this. Indeed TABI seems to encourage it. It isn’t ethical and it’s harmful to the entire tarot community.

I know there are TABI members who understand what I am talking about. You will be the ones who are endorsed but do not advertise the fact or perhaps you haven’t undergone the programme. I would urge those of you who do understand the problem to take the debate to the membership and fix the problem which undoes so much of the organisation's good work.

Macavity - Mystery Cat! It is very good to see you and if this debate drew you out of hiding then it's at least accomplished one good thing.

I, for one, have missed your voice.

ribbitcat

Hi Macavity, my friend -

Macavity said:
(Sorry) I guess I used the word "proscribe" in a JOCULAR vein - Recalling suffererings of school Latin lessons, where sundry "Ancients being proscribed", seemed to be an occupational hazard? (For them, anyway)!

LOL with far more serious consequences, as I recall !

But simply TABI (perhaps) being "denounced" over the specific endorsement issue? I see the word itself might also mean "outlawed" etc. But I too doubt that is (yet) true...

Yes, it can feel like that

But I tried to remember that the thread is specifically about TABI - if it were on of those general ethics/certification ones that Major Tom gives the link to, then we wouldn't feel so unique, as *everyone* would be getting picked on ;-)

ribbit

Netzach

jmd said:
If the endorsement was knowledge based, ie, about the structure of the deck, or its historical development, or whether a person in knowledgeable in its variety, then the analogy would be acceptable.

Analogies to other organisations, professions, or exclusive societies is in any case quite different, in that the certificate makes a public pronouncement that readers are certifiable.

I beg to differ. Membership of the ABA says that a member is a proficient and ethical bookseller - it doesn't say that no other bookseller is proficient or ethical. A qualification from a catering college says that someone is a proficient cook - it doesn't say that no one else can cook. A qualification from a music college says that someone is a proficient musician - it doesn't say that no one else can sing or play a musical instrument. A certificate from TABI says that someone is a proficient Tarot reader. It does NOT say that no one else is of a similar (or even higher) standard.

I always feel that this argument comes down to semantics and nothing more. Perhaps TABI should do away with the certificate and call it an assessment rather than an endorsement - would that stop some of the sniping?

ribbitcat

Hi Major Tom

Major Tom said:
*Sigh*

Now don't do that - hope springs eternal, and you never know, you *might* change someone's mind ;-)

I like all the good work they do and every member I’ve met is a lovely person.

Well, of course - you've met *me*, for a start ! LOL

If someone you liked were hurting themselves and others around them, yet refused to accept that they were, wouldn’t you keep on at them about it? It is in precisely that spirit that I pursue this issue.

Perhaps a 12 step program to wean them off the endorsement idea ? <G>

I do not understand the objection to calling the endorsement scheme training. Something of value must pass between mentor and candidate during the 25 emails. I would call that thing of value learning. Aren’t schemes that involve learning by candidates called training?

OK, I can sort of glimpse where you're coming from, I think. However, I would argue that teaching/training is different from learning. For example, I learned a lot from the people I mentored; however, they did not *set out* to teach me anything. Teaching/training, to me, implies something more purposeful - the teacher sets out with the express intent of imparting knowledge of some kind. Also, one can teach till the cows come home, and the recipients of the teaching may never learn anything.

Mr. & Mrs. Fairgoer wandering ‘round and ‘round the venue examining each of the two tarot readers present. Finally, unable to make up their minds Mrs. Fairgoer says, “let’s go with the endorsed one, at least that way we know what we’re getting.’

The whole point is they do not know what they are getting.

To an extent, they do - they are getting someone who has undergone a process of endorsement successfully, has spent time and effort in doing that, increased their knowledge thereby (without being *taught* anything LOL) and if things go really pear-shaped, they have recourse to the organization that oversaw the endorsement of the reader.

And the reader displaying the endorsement certificate provided by TABI is committing a falsehood by claiming that a tarot reading can be certified or endorsed to a certain standard.

I disagree.

As an organisation, TABI do the same by only allowing endorsed readers at their events and publicising the fact that they ‘are making a statement’ with the endorsement scheme. This furthers the falsehood in the public mind that tarot reading can be standardised and may one day perhaps lead to official regulation.

And again

And the reader that wasn’t selected, but overheard the exchange? She’s left wondering if she shouldn’t get some kind of certificate too. And in many cases she does, thus perpetuating the falsehood.

If she does, she has also then achieved what the first reader has - learning and experience; as you said before, not a bad thing; although maybe the motivation is not pure.

It’s an entirely different matter when that turns into, “I took part in the scheme and it made me better than anyone who hasn’t.” TABI has members who do this.

They do ? It's my personal opinion (mentioned before, and in other threads)that *most* TABI Endorsed readers are better than *many* unendorsed readers, but I have never claimed this for myself ie. I don't say that *I* am a better reader because I am Endorsed. And I was trying to be a burr under the saddle when I said it, too

Indeed TABI seems to encourage it. It isn’t ethical and it’s harmful to the entire tarot community.

No, I really disagree with you here.

I know there are TABI members who understand what I am talking about. You will be the ones who are endorsed but do not advertise the fact or perhaps you haven’t undergone the programme. I would urge those of you who do understand the problem to take the debate to the membership and fix the problem which undoes so much of the organisation's good work.

I'm not sure that this is actually the best course of action. Members, whether readers or not, have signed up to agree to TABI's ...principles ?, ethics etc, and therefore it would be preaching mostly to people that are not convertible. They agreed/liked what TABI stands for or they wouldn't have joined in the first place, d'you see, and why would they want to change that ?

Macavity - Mystery Cat! It is very good to see you and if this debate drew you out of hiding then it's at least accomplished one good thing. I, for one, have missed your voice.

At last ! LOL Something about which I can wholeheartedly agree with you. My eternal hope has been fulfilled ;-)

ribbit

Netzach

I trained to be a doctor . . . When I was an Army doctor, I worked on a training base where young recruits were being trained to be soldiers . . . I have been trained as a singer . . .

The TABI endorsement procedure is NOT training. When one is trained, one is taught HOW to do something. When I undertook the endorsement procedure, I did 25 readings. My mentor made an occasional comment and at the end ASSESSED me as being competent. At no time was I taught HOW to do anything.

We're back to ruddy semantics again! And on that basis we're never all going to agree.

le pendu

I don't think this is a linguistics issue at all.

I don't read for the public, so this doesn't really matter to me one way or another.

The issues I see:

1. TABI charges money to be a member, you must be a member to be a reader and go through the "system". Therefore, to get the certificate, you need to pay money to TABI. That gives the system the sense of a money making scheme.

2. By certifying readers, TABI implies that there is some way of verifying what a "good reader" means. Is it like certifying psychics? How can this be accurately and fairly measured? Who sets the standard, and who says that whoever sets the standard is right?

3. TABI propogates the myth that there is a system that can determine a good reader by creating the certification system, and creates a misconception with the public that certain readers may be better because they have been certified.

4. This myth causes problems with "other" tarot readers because of the misconception that the certification "actually means anything" at all. In fact.. the underlying message is that BECAUSE someone has the TABI certificate, they have "proven" they are good readers to some board with some way of assessing this. This forces those without the certificate to have to explain WHY they don't have one, or don't need one... or worse... to have to pay money to TABI and go through the system so they can compete with others with the certificate.

firecatpickles

I have been following this Thread (don't ask me why) closely and I must say, le pendu, that this is a very concise and eloquent and to-the-point Post!

I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment.

Webwitch

Major Tom said:
I know there are TABI members who understand what I am talking about. You will be the ones who are endorsed but do not advertise the fact or perhaps you haven’t undergone the programme. I would urge those of you who do understand the problem to take the debate to the membership and fix the problem which undoes so much of the organisation's good work.

I am not an endorsed reader for TABI and, I'm sorry Major Tom, I won't be raising any objections based on the points you have raised in any of your posts. I will admit that I have a personal bias on this, being a member of TABI and one who has undergone their training (beginner's course). I have also stood outside of TABI and looked in and still not seen, sensed or deduced from their publications and behaviour what you describe. I have yet to see an argument that will persuade me that TABI is undermining the tarot community, seeking to regulate it or propogating any myths about tarot.

I have always seen TABI as promoting tarot and tarot readers alike.

Endorsement in TABI means that you are endorsed to read for TABI only. That is to say that as an endorsed TABI reader, you agree with their ethics, you will not do a reading for children, and you can spell, utilise basic grammar you know how to present an email reading in a professional manner, you are not going to blab the minituae of the querent's private life to all and sundry; and when you read under the TABI banner in face-to-face readings, you are not going to sit there and spit on the floor whilst drinking a whiskey, vodkha and rum cocktail during the reading.

Major Tom said:
I do not understand the objection to calling the endorsement scheme training. Something of value must pass between mentor and candidate during the 25 emails. I would call that thing of value learning. Aren’t schemes that involve learning by candidates called training?

No. Endorsement means "approval or sanction". The course is the training and not every endorsed reader of TABI comes by way of the course. The mentor is there to give you an idea of how to frame a reading in line with TABI ethics, aims and guidelines (always remembering that those ideals are shared amongst its members who have agreed to them). So, a spelling error here, an ethical matter there (the removal of plagiarism as Ribbit mentioned). Is that training? I thought it was mentoring, i.e. giving members a level (of professionalism) to which to aspire.

Major Tom said:
And the reader displaying the endorsement certificate provided by TABI is committing a falsehood by claiming that a tarot reading can be certified or endorsed to a certain standard.

It can be - a reading that follows the ethical and professional lines taken by TABI as a democratic group. For example, not being drunk or off yer face on drugs, not insulting the querents, telling the querents all the cards that have been drawn, stating where each card is lying, and giving a reading from same (not the cat droppings on your kitchen table). It does not necessarily equate to the quality or standard of the interpretation, apart from the copyright issue mentioned earlier by Ribbit.

Major Tom said:
As an organisation, TABI do the same by only allowing endorsed readers at their events and publicising the fact that they ‘are making a statement’ with the endorsement scheme.

What would be the point of encouraging another organisation at a TABI event? What benefit of membership would there be for TABI members if TABI did not offer them priority over the tarot reader populace as a whole? Personally, if TABI allowed readers who did not follow their ethical line under their banners at events, I would be disgusted.

As to making a statement: Yes, TABI do. Their readers know how to behave in public and they know how to present themselves and now to present a reading so that it makes sense to a querent who may no nothing of tarot.

If a querent has a problem with a particular reader, there is recourse to be sought from the organisation that is TABI. Endorsed readers are are going to follow the aims and ethics clearly set out on the TABI website.

Major Tom said:
This furthers the falsehood in the public mind that tarot reading can be standardised and may one day perhaps lead to official regulation.

Major Tom said:

I think this is a myth, perpetrated by those who seek to imply that TABI is "damaging" the tarot community as a whole, thereby effectively eliminating the competition (see below). *personal opinion fromed from reading this and threads like this one*

le pendu said:

TABI charges money to be a member, you must be a member to be a reader and go through the "system". Therefore, to get the certificate, you need to pay money to TABI. That gives the system the sense of a money making scheme.

Click to expand...

It is not a "money making scheme" and if one reads the website and understand the nature of the organisation, one can see that the membership fee barely covers the running costs. TABI charges money to cover administrative charges for running an organisation with members all over the globe. It is run by volunteers, but there are costs involved in paperwork, running websites, banners, paying for stalls at events, etc.

Why would an organisation seek to give its endorsement certificates to all and sundry regardless of membership? This would invalidate the members themselves. Why give endorsement to those who could be crackpots posting from am asylum?

le pendu said:

2. By certifying readers, TABI implies that there is some way of verifying what a "good reader" means. Is it like certifying psychics? How can this be accurately and fairly measured? Who sets the standard, and who says that whoever sets the standard is right?

Click to expand...

I have answered this earlier in this post. By saying they will behave in a professional and ethical manner - it does not necessarily reflect the ability of the endorsee, though I have yet to find a TABI member lacking in ability.

le pendu said:

3. TABI propogates the myth that there is a system that can determine a good reader by creating the certification system, and creates a misconception with the public that certain readers may be better because they have been certified.

Click to expand...

No.

That is the contention of several people here and in other threads. I would have thought the general populace are sensible enough to realise this is not what TABI (or other organisations of similar construct) seek to do. I often wonder how many have read the AIMS/Ethics page or the whole of the TABI website to get a real sense of its purpose.

It seems the problem does lie with semantics (a language barrier if you will) because everyone seems to be interpreting or misinterpreating the endorsement schemes to suit their own purposes (including myself and TABI members).

le pendu said:

BECAUSE someone has the TABI certificate, they have "proven" they are good readers to some board with some way of assessing this. This forces those without the certificate to have to explain WHY they don't have one, or don't need one... or worse... to have to pay money to TABI and go through the system so they can compete with others with the certificate.

Click to expand...

So, non-TABI members resent having to explain their abilities, professionalism, experience, etc to their querents?

Its too much competition for tarot readers who are not members of any association?

So, its more of a commercial issue this certification (pro/con)? If TABI (and organisation like TABI) didn't exist all tarot readers would be on equal footing and TABI are giving their members a helping hand, because querents (from the general public) like knowing that TABI readers are ethical and have standards of behaviour and/or presentation. Bad TABI! Bad, bad TABI!

Okay, perhaps I am blinkered to other interpretations. I am not particularly intelligent, nor am I particularly stupid - at no time did I think the TABI endorsement scheme stated, implied or otherwise gave the impression that its readers were better than others, either before I was a member nor after.

I had always understood that the readers who were endorsed by TABI were able to go on and get experience in reading professionally for the public at large at events, etc, having gained confidence from a mentor.

Many endorsees leave TABI, having gained the experience and confident they desired. So, is that a training scheme or a mentoring scheme? Is that such a bad thing?

Click to expand...

Webwitch

le pendu said:
or worse... to have to pay money to TABI so they can compete with others with the certificate.

If its a matter of money, Fulgour offers FREE certificates here and there is no system or programme involved, unless you count Adobe and/or Windows.

Tarot Association of the British Isles - courses

Macavity

Major Tom

ribbitcat

Netzach

ribbitcat

Netzach

le pendu

firecatpickles

Webwitch

Webwitch