Is there another job coming - horary

As I wrote in the Questions thread http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=4913430&postcount=88 I had to unfortunately refuse to accept a job due to logistics issues which I cannot resolve.

I cast a chart today to check if there was still job on the cards (i.e. if the previous charts had spoken about the one I refused or about another one I'd accept). The chart was cast on January 18, 2017 at 13:59 in Toronto. The question remained if there is a new job coming my way within the next six months.

I am Mercury, the Ascendant is good. The job is Saturn (MC in Aquarius). Saturn is in the 7th. Normally it would signify clouded judgment but I don't think so in this chart. Mercury had a conjunction with Saturn, it could describe that I did have an offer in the works but had to leave it behind and the job went to others (7th house). Saturn also has a connection to its ruler Jupiter with which the Moon will soon conjunct.

Here are my thoughts. Due to Jupiter significantly slowing down about to turn retro, Jupiter collected the light of Saturn (the job), separated from a sextile with Saturn and is currently about to be conjunct by the Moon (co-significator of the querent or the question). I've rarely had collection of light charts and cannot remember the outcome, so I checked all bases.

In order for collection to be truly potent, the "collector" better be a benefic (Jupiter is) and in dignities of the significators. Jupiter is in Saturn's exaltation and triplicity and in Mercury's terms. So far so good. I then checked if Jupiter would receive Saturn and he would, since Saturn is in Jupiter's domicile. Due to Jupiter slowing down but only recently, I also checked if Saturn would receive Jupiter and he would, since Jupiter is in Saturn's triplicity and exaltation. The willingness of the third party to assist with the job (Saturn) was present. The Moon will conjunct Jupiter in Jupiter's face and although not so strong, it's still a dignity of Jupiter that the Moon will be applying from, therefore Jupiter will receive the Moon.

All together, seems there is still a job. I will appreciate input and thoughts. It is very very important to me. I also hope this job will be better being angular and not 8th house as before.

I did see your original post in the other thread, but the last couple of days have involved medical appointments for my wife and I've not really had time to get round to an answer.

I take it you used Regiomomopntanus cusps and on that basis I'll take a look at the chart and get back to you with comments.

I see two problems:

Firstly both main significators have to aspect the third planet that collects the light. That means that both Mercury (you) and Saturn (job) have to aspect a third planet. You have suggested Jupiter for this role. Neither of the two main significators actually aspects Jupiter. Mercury at 4 degrees 47 Capricorn is nowhere near making an aspect to Jupiter at 22 degrees 36 Libra, And Saturn at 23 degrees 18 Sagittarius is not in aspect, though Jupiter is applying to a sextile with Saturn.

Secondly, asyou say, Jupiter is slowing down to its station Rx and that sextile will never be perfected. Whehn Jupiter turns Rx on 8th Feb it will still be nearly 2 degrees short of perfecting. I checked to see if the sextile perfected earlier, but it didn't. In fact the aspect will only perfect on 27 August after Jupiter had turned direct again.

So sadly there's no collection of light here.

Now if I had been doing the horary, I would have used whole Sign houses and also checked the MC ruler. As we have seen the MC ruler doesn't give a positive answer. But the ruler of the tenth is Jupiter, and Jupiter is about to be bodily joined to the Moon, which as you say is your co-significator. Now on that basis, I'd have said that the second job is out there and you should beconme aware of it in the next six months.

So this seems to be a good test, of method. We'll see what happens over the next few months.

Thanks Minderwiz. I have to mention that Jupiter and Saturn were in partile sextile and it is technically separating now. They were only minutes away and as far as I remember, planets in same degree are in partile aspect which is sufficient. Am I wrong? If I am and the sextile never perfected thi winter, then the original job chart, the one from November 7, shouldn't have produced a job offer but it did. It was the sextile Jupiter Saturn that was the aspect. To me this is a proof that partile aspect worked out even though the planets remained a few minutes apart.

Lily actually said once that a "partille" aspect comes to pass within three degreees, I believe, according to my notes, although another time he spoke of two planets in the 9th degree a sufficient evidence for perfection. I do not think the 3 degrees is that reliable but my previous chart produced this job offer that I refused and it did rely in this very same sextile between Jupiter and Saturn, which proves his point a out being in the same degree.

Second, Moon is always the querent's co-significator and she does collect Saturn's light from Jupiter. We have used Moon's aspects in our discussions many times when main querent's significator didn't have an aspect. Why not use the Moon here? I know the two significators are normally mentioned in articles about collection of light but do we have a prohibition by the ancients to include co-significators and even more so, the Moon? Would it have been a marriage question, would Lily prohibit including Venus and Sun when considering collection of light and they were not the main significators?

Sadly, you know I use Regiomontanus. I was trying to figure out if there was a hint of all this happening in the original chart I posted in Questions but I'm not sure what to look for. Can you advise me please? What would signify my inability to accept an offer and what would be a second job? 10Th from 10Th? Doesn't Ring true...

I truly hope you and your family get over any health issues! Sounds like you had a challenging year in that sense. I am thinking of you and yours and wishing speedy recovery.

10Th of 10th

Minderwiz, just tell me if I'm on the right path in my wanderings. Thank you.

I checked my notes and it seems it is indeed 10Th of 10Th for a second offer/job. In this case the original job chart dated November 7 doesn't look bad. The second job will be signified by the Sun on the 9th cusp. It's also the Sun in whole houses. The Sun is connected to Saturn, me, by the Moon. The Sun is exactly conjunct my natal MC.

It's interesting that both jobs are in universities - the one I couldn't take is Jupiter, natural significator of higher education, and one I still hope to get is Sun on the cusp of the 9th house. I also think the 8th house placement of Jupiter was quite explicit again.

No Collection but some clutching at straws

Ronia said:

Thanks Minderwiz. I have to mention that Jupiter and Saturn were in partile sextile and it is technically separating now. They were only minutes away and as far as I remember, planets in same degree are in partile aspect which is sufficient. Am I wrong? If I am and the sextile never perfected thi winter, then the original job chart, the one from November 7, shouldn't have produced a job offer but it did. It was the sextile Jupiter Saturn that was the aspect. To me this is a proof that partile aspect worked out even though the planets remained a few minutes apart.

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I used an aspectarian to check the perfection and it didn't happen but, you're right, Lilly simply says partile aspect for sextile, and trine. And they certainly were in the same degree, at 18, 19, 20 and 21 degrees of their respective signs. But if we go by a strict interpretation of Lilly He also clearly says that Collection involves the two main significators casting their various aspects to a planet that is more weighty than them. I think he means slower planet than them, Jupiter is not normally slower than Saturn and on the day and time that you cast the chart, It was actually slightly faster than Saturn - Jupiter,0 degrees 00 minutes 16 seconds; Saturn 0 degrees, 00 minutes 01 seconds. (taken from Morinus). That in itself may mean that Lilly's criteria are not met, but Let's be generous and say that as Jupiter was coming to its Station Rx and the Partile aspect had been achieved confirming that Saturn and Jupiter had completed the sextile, there remains the failure of Mercury to aspect Jupiter. Lilly doesn't mention co-significators and doesn't mention the Moon in his definition of Collection. It's clear that he means the two principal significators and those are Mercury and Saturn. With no aspect between Mercury and Jupiter, there is no Collection. The light of both significators has not been collected.

Mercury however is squaring the Lot of Spirit (which does have significance for career) Lilly doesn't use Spirit but Sahl and Masha'allah did. What's more it's an applying aspect because even though Spirit is at 1 degree Libra it will move forward through the sign with time and it will come into the aspect of Mercury. The Lot is ruled by Venus, which also rules Jupiter and within two hours of the chart being cast, the Lot will be firstly becvome conjunct Moon and then Jupite It will also go on to be sextiled by Saturn. That seems to be significant action involving the Lot. Moreover Jupiter is in a mutual reception with Venus, which rules the Lot of Spirit and Jupiter also rules the Lot of Fortune. Venus is thus in the tenth Wolesign house.and as Jupiter is in the fifth Whole Sign House, both planets suggest a job in the Leisure and entertainments industry - right up your street. And the Moon's next two aspects are to Jupiter and Saturn, the two significators of the job, in Whole Sign Houses. So the Moon would translate the light from Jupiter to Saturn. The Moon's following aspect would be a square to the Sun which is a natural signifcator of Career and status

Is this clutching at straws? Quite possibly, but it's at least something and given that the Collection of Light won't happen, it's better than nothing and the significators of Status and career are all involved in this, even if you take only the Aquarius MC into account. Lilly is quite clear that Sun and MC are significators of status and professional advancement.

Thanks. for your good wishes. they are appreciated. Things are slowly righting themselves after a horrendous period from April through to October. There will be further appointments, but I'm hoping that they will maintain a positive trend. And I really, really do hope that you will find that second job coming your way. At least you have secured a job offer, even if you can't accept it. Venus the ruler of the fifth house of children is in the tenth (whichever house system you use) and it was that consideration which ruled out the job offer. So Good luck (Fortune is also in the tenth) for a happy outcome.

You know, I've never seen a chart producing a positive outcome through any of the lots. I'll take this as valuable learning point but not more than that. However, being stubborn, since Lily did not prohibit cosignificators from collecting light LOL, I'll stick to my theory. On top of that, Moon's last aspect was With Mercury.

I haven't applied to any arts jobs. I need a stable job. As I wrote above, universities mostly. One in alumni organization, one indental association and one in engineer association. All that are up in the air now, in the three institutions, I want and they meet all my requirements. Iasked if I'd get the jobinthe alumni organization but seems like a no which is too bad, I very much wanted this one.

Could you please tell me if in the original chart a second offer would be indeed 10Th of 10Th because this chart still holds more value being the first one cast.

It's been a rough year for many people but hey, we made it to here! And in about two months we'll be celebrating the astrological new year as well. I hope the worst is behind us for now.

Ronia said:

You know, I've never seen a chart producing a positive outcome through any of the lots. I'll take this as valuable learning point but not more than that. However, being stubborn, since Lily did not prohibit cosignificators from collecting light LOL, I'll stick to my theory. On top of that, Moon's last aspect was With Mercury.

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He does not specifically prohibit the use fo co-significators but neither did he specifically allow it.

Lilly's definition is:

COLLECTION: Matters are also brought to perfection when as the two principal significators do not behold one another but both cast their several Aspects to a more weighty planet than themselves and they both recceive him in some of their essential dignities, then shall the planet who hath collected both their lights, bring the thing demanded to perfection; which signifiesno more in the ARt than this, that a person, somewhat interested in both parties and descrobed and signified by that plaente shall perform, effect and conclude the thing which otherwise could not be perfected'

There's no reference to the Moon or a co-significator. The two principal significators in this chart are Mercury and Saturn (using Regiomontanus) They are not in aspect and they do not aspect a third more weighty planet. Saturn did form a partile sextile (though not a perfected aspect) to Jupiter and Saturn did receive Jupiter into its exaltation (and triplicity) of Libra. As Saturn is in Sagittarius there is an argument that the mutual reception of Exaltation (Jupiter in Saturn's Exaltation and Ruler (Saturn in Jupiter's domicile) should itself complete the requirement for the Jupiter and Saturn connection.

However Mercury does not aspect Jupiter, neither does it receive it into any dignity of Mercury, as Mercury is the Air Triplicity ruler by night and this is a day chart.

If we do consider the Moon, there is no reception at all! The Moon does not receive Jupiter into any of its essential dignities. Yes, the Moon is in the Terms of Jupiter, but at best that's Jupiter receiving the Moon. Jupiter itself is in the Terms of Venus. So if you're going to argue that Lilly doesn't prohibit the use of co-significators, then the Moon fails the Collection test because it does not receive Jupiter.

Ronia said:

I haven't applied to any arts jobs. I need a stable job. As I wrote above, universities mostly. One in alumni organization, one indental association and one in engineer association. All that are up in the air now, in the three institutions, I want and they meet all my requirements. Iasked if I'd get the jobinthe alumni organization but seems like a no which is too bad, I very much wanted this one.

Could you please tell me if in the original chart a second offer would be indeed 10Th of 10Th because this chart still holds more value being the first one cast.

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I would only consider a 10th from the tenth, if the question specifically referred to two jobs - both of which were possible contenders. Thus if you were in for two job interviews and you were trying to tell which of the two you might get, then that would be a posssible situation to use a second job significator.

In this case there is only one job under consideration - a job that will come your way in the next six months. The question boils down to does (will) that jobe exist. The answer is more a YES/NO one. It either will exist in the next six months and you will apply for it, or it won't come to pass. At the moment you are unaware of such a job and certainly haven't applied for one.

Your appropriate method would be to weight the significators (including the Moon) to see if overall, they suggest a favourable outcome. That is all significators, should preferably be strongly placed and well dignified.

Mercury is angular (though not in the sign of the Descendant)
Saturn is angular (and in the sign of the Descendant)
The Moon is in the fifth House

Mercury is in its own Terms, Saturn is in its own Terms and Face, the Moon is Peregrine and Slow. (and also in the Via Combusta, if you use that consideration). Saturn and Jupiter are both occidental (rising before the Sun)l, and would be better off oriental (setting before the Sun). Mercury is occidental and this is better than being oriental.

Saturn Mercury and the Moon are slow. Saturn, and Mercury are both direct. Saturn is squared by Mars. (partile aspect) Mercury and the Moon are free from affliction.

There's no strong testimony for a 'YES' answer, though Mercury and Saturn are both direct All three are slow, so if a job does come it will be towards the end of your period, Sorry, this doesn't seem to be particularly favourable.

Minderwiz said:

There's no strong testimony for a 'YES' answer, though Mercury and Saturn are both direct All three are slow, so if a job does come it will be towards the end of your period, Sorry, this doesn't seem to be particularly favourable.

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Minderwiz, i looked at the *original* chart cast on November 7 (in the Questions thread) for a hint there could be more than one job offered to me. Not in this one. The 10th of 10th referred to this first chart. If we follow the rules strictly, the first chart cast on November 7th which simply asked if I'll get a better job, should show the flow of events - an offer, I cannot take it, and a second one if there is such. The chart was highly favourable with more than one sign of a job coming (and indeed an offer was made) - sextile Jupiter - Saturn, Moon connecting them, MC applying to my significator. The chart proved right for one offer. I looked in it to see if there was a hint another job would come to me. In my opinion the Moon-Sun-Saturn connection does promise such as the Sun rules 10th of 10th (and contracts/agreements). At the time I had no way to know an offer would be made that I couldn't accept, therefore could not have asked about a second job but in my opinion, a chart should show the flow of events accurately, especially considering I'm applying to multiple jobs and have by 2 interviews a week.

Lily did not exclude co-significators was my point. I am pretty sure that if this was a marriage question, he would have taken collection serving Venus and the Sun - co-significators. Not that i know it for sure but I see no reason why not. Just speculating here, nothing more. Moon is applying, why should she receive Jupiter? He was not retro yet. Jupiter will receive the Moon as she will conjunct him from his term. And the Moon's last aspect was with Mercury. At least, that's how it looks to me. (that's without even touching the Ascendant - Jupiter trine) Jupiter rules the 7th and aside from other things, it's also contracts and agreements. It had its last aspect with the job, Saturn. Job contract. If I'm right, such should be coming my way. I'll follow up with the alumni organization on Monday and hopefully will know more.

Even if we abandon the straight forward collection for a moment, Jupiter has Saturn's light as the sextile is separating. Moon is co-significator of the querent and had last aspect with Mercury - significator of the querent and will next conjunct this same Jupiter that has the light of Saturn now. Just my view and trying to keep it simple, so that I can follow. No matter how I look at the Moon, she will pick the light of Saturn from Jupiter. And she carries the light of Mercury. May be it's not textbook chain of events but it is there and if it's there, it should mean something.

I'll stick to casting charts for the various jobs once I reach a final interview or checking references stage. Surprisingly, the one company checking my references now seems to not offer the job and this is unexpected as i know the interviews went absolutely excellently, which is why I cast the chart yesterday. true, I can't figure out the antiscia.

P.S. I am applying every week to at least 10 jobs, it's on my agenda. I have interviewed for about 20 till now. Interviews come regularly.

Ronia said:

Minderwiz, i looked at the *original* chart cast on November 7 (in the Questions thread) for a hint there could be more than one job offered to me. Not in this one. The 10th of 10th referred to this first chart. If we follow the rules strictly, the first chart cast on November 7th which simply asked if I'll get a better job, should show the flow of events - an offer, I cannot take it, and a second one if there is such. The chart was highly favourable with more than one sign of a job coming (and indeed an offer was made) - sextile Jupiter - Saturn, Moon connecting them, MC applying to my significator. The chart proved right for one offer. I looked in it to see if there was a hint another job would come to me. In my opinion the Moon-Sun-Saturn connection does promise such as the Sun rules 10th of 10th (and contracts/agreements). At the time I had no way to know an offer would be made that I couldn't accept, therefore could not have asked about a second job but in my opinion, a chart should show the flow of events accurately, especially considering I'm applying to multiple jobs and have by 2 interviews a week.

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That seems a reasonable case for considering a second job from the same chart. I'll take a look.

Ronia said:

Lily did not exclude co-significators was my point. I am pretty sure that if this was a marriage question, he would have taken collection serving Venus and the Sun - co-significators. Not that i know it for sure but I see no reason why not. Just speculating here, nothing more. Moon is applying, why should she receive Jupiter? He was not retro yet. Jupiter will receive the Moon as she will conjunct him from his term. And the Moon's last aspect was with Mercury. At least, that's how it looks to me. (that's without even touching the Ascendant - Jupiter trine) Jupiter rules the 7th and aside from other things, it's also contracts and agreements. It had its last aspect with the job, Saturn. Job contract. If I'm right, such should be coming my way. I'll follow up with the alumni organization on Monday and hopefully will know more.

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I don't think that Collection holds here, though I would see the matter being effected by other means, as I've said before. Lilly's definition of collection, which I quoted in full in my last post is quite explcit - it refers to the two principal significators (no mention of Moon or other co-significators) and requires that both the two faster planets receive the more weighty planet in one of their essential dignities. He's quite explicit, the planet received is the more weighty one. Now I know that Lilly sometimes doesn't follow his own rules but it's clear that in this case, the two prinicipal significators do not aspect Jupiter, and that that there is no reception other than the mutual reception between Saturn and Jupiter. It's clear from the definition, that Lilly allows the faster planets to receive the slower ones (as do Sahl and Masha'allah), indeed Lilly requires that it should be so.

Now using Lilly's definition of Reception. The Moon cannot receive Jupiter, as Jupiter is in none of the dignities of the Moon. Also it's not clear, whether Jupiter is receiving the Moon. Yes the Moon is in Jupiter's Terms, but it won't be when the conjunction is perfected - Jupiter is in the Terms of Venus, which begins at 19 degrees and 1 second of Libra. Incidentally, both Sahl and Masha'allah would not allow Jupiter to receive the Moon, as they confine Reception proper,top domicile and Exaltation. They will allow weak
Reception through Triplicity and where the Received planet is in the Bounds AND the Face of the receiving planet, otherwise there is not Reception.

Ronia said:

Even if we abandon the straight forward collection for a moment, Jupiter has Saturn's light as the sextile is separating. Moon is co-significator of the querent and had last aspect with Mercury - significator of the querent and will next conjunct this same Jupiter that has the light of Saturn now. Just my view and trying to keep it simple, so that I can follow. No matter how I look at the Moon, she will pick the light of Saturn from Jupiter. And she carries the light of Mercury. May be it's not textbook chain of events but it is there and if it's there, it should mean something.

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I'll stick to casting charts for the various jobs once I reach a final interview or checking references stage. Surprisingly, the one company checking my references now seems to not offer the job and this is unexpected as i know the interviews went absolutely excellently, which is why I cast the chart yesterday. true, I can't figure out the antiscia.

P.S. I am applying every week to at least 10 jobs, it's on my agenda. I have interviewed for about 20 till now. Interviews come regularly.[/QUOTE]



I think we do have to abandon Collection of Light but asI said at the outset I feel there will be a second job and that the Moon/Jupiter conjunction would indicate that. You are right, Mercury was the last planet aspected by the Moon. Even better, the Moon's last aspect was to the Ascendant, and before that to the MC and before that came the square to Mercury.So the Moon has aspected in succession the ruler of the Ascendant, the MC itself and the Ascendant itself. It's next aspect is to Jupiter.It's an on-topic set of aspects

The question is, does Jupiter still hold the Light of the Saturn, even though it is now separating from it. I think we have to say yes to that, otherwise Collection of Light would never be possible. So Mercury's disposition will be taken to Jupiter, by the Moon and in this case, we can consider Jupiter receiving the Moon, though as I said above there is some doubt as to whether that Reception stops after the Moon moves out of the Terms of Jupiter. If I remember rightly, Sahl or Masha'allah saw the withdrawal of reception in this way to be detrimental to perfection. Jupiter is withdrawing its support from the Moon.

That argument would also apply to my view of Jupiter as ruler of the tenth. The Moon would still be stronger as an agent of perfecting the matter, if it was received by Jupiter.

So let's work on Moon takes light of Mercury to Jupiter, which already holds the light of Saturn. It's a complex argument Are there any other problems? The only ones I can see are the slowness of the significators, especially Jupiter. which will station Retrograde next month (5th Feb) At best that suggests that the matter will be very slow in coming about. If the second job comes up, it will be delayed, even though Jupiter is in a Cardinal Sign, suggesting a quick outcome. Let's hope it works.

And yes. The Will I get the job is probably best left to situations where you are clearly under consideration and they want to interview you.