Natal Chart with Traditional Astrology

Flaxen

I know there are some people here who are very knowledgeable about traditional astrology.

I'd really like to try and interpret my chart based on traditional methods. Could you recommend good resources? Is William Lilly the best route to go down?
 

Minderwiz

That's not an easy question to answer, for several reasons - but I'll have a go.

Firstly, the tradition has three main (and several minor) components,

Hellenistic Astrology - covering a period from the fourth century BCE till about the fifth century CE but at it's height around the first and second centuries CE.

Medieval, comprising Arab (more accurately Persian) Astrology, from around the 8th century CE till the 11th Century and European from around th 11th to the 15th centuries

Seventeenth Century Astrology, mostly focussing on Lilly and Morin but including Henry Coley and John Partridge. There's also a case for including John Dee from the 16th Century.

These are separate methods though there is clear overlap, so the first issue is which do you want to use. The answer may well depend on two things, ease of access and resources available.

So secondly we have ease of access. Lilly wrote in English - though bear in mind Seventeenth Century English had the same words but sometimes with different meanings, and a lot of words that have dropped out of modern usage. So terms that were very familiar to his readers, are now obscure. Hence a Lilly with modern footnotes is almost essential (see resources below)

Morin and the medieval Europeans wrote in Latin, so you're dependent on translations available, the same goes for the Arabs who wrote in Arabic or Farsi (Persian) and of course the Greeks who wrote in Greek (ancient, not modern) - so we know of quite a few texts but as yet they've not gone through the translation mill. Even some works are only partially translated, Morin's Astrolgia Gallica is one, but quite a few of the medieval texts and especially the Hellenistic texts fall into this category of limited access. So Lilly becomes useful not because he is the best source for traditional Astrology (though he is a very good source) but because he is more accessible. His natal Astrology has been rubbished a bit, but actually I find it a lot more useful than some critics suggest. Unlike modern authors, there's no publishing house to edit and proof read the text, so there are contradictory statements, or repetitions, that are not quite the same.

Whichever of the three periods you go for, there is a large culture shock in store. Our modern understanding of signs is just that - modern. The sign meanings in common use today are the invention largely of Alan Leo about a century ago. In traditional texts you'll see no reference to people as 'Pisces' or 'Aries', etc as generic psycological types. Sign meanings are much more similar to Vedic practices.

To make matters worse many authors wrote either for their fellow practioners, or for their apprentices, and the book also required the master to be present. Quite often points that could be illustrated with a chart are not, so many things appear ambiguous. Again Lilly is an exception to this, as is Morin.

One final point on access - they used square charts, just like modern (and traditional) Vedic ones. Some translations or annotated texts try to insert modern wheel charts - the edition of Lilly's natal work does just that - but mainly as appendices.

So Lilly wins from the point of view of access and as a practicing Astrologer, you get a professional's judgement about some of the techniques he used or tried out - especially his view on other authors.

In terms of resources Lilly's Christian Astrology is available for natal work you need Books 1 and 4 but as book 1 is only published along with Book 2, it means you need both published works. I noticed that Book 3 is now available for Kindle at a low price, so if you are a Kindle user, it's well worth buying.

From modern 'Traditionalists' a great book for natal is Dorian Greenbaum's Temperament - Astrology's Forgotten Key, At a more general level Avelar and Ribeiro's On the Heavenly Spheres which I've reviewed elsewhere gives a very good starter and Ben Dykes Traditional Astrology For Today gives a good background and starter text. Again I've reviewed that elsewhere.

Finally on resources there's the thread

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=135390

Which is a good start, as I do a natal analysis of Bill Clinton as an illustration.

Much of that might well seem daunting, but that's because it is not an easy step. If you are interested, I could take you through the first steps and use your chart as an illustration of how a natal reading would proceed, especially as other's might find it useful. That would give you a basis from which to explore as and when time and money for books is available. I'd mainly use Lilly but also perhaps some Medieval and Hellenistic comments for comparison.
 

Barleywine

So Lilly wins from the point of view of access and as a practicing Astrologer, you get a professional's judgement about some of the techniques he used or tried out - especially his view on other authors.

In terms of resources Lilly's Christian Astrology is available for natal work you need Books 1 and 4 but as book 1 is only published along with Book 2, it means you need both published works. I noticed that Book 3 is now available for Kindle at a low price, so if you are a Kindle user, it's well worth buying.

From modern 'Traditionalists' a great book for natal is Dorian Greenbaum's Temperament - Astrology's Forgotten Key, At a more general level Avelar and Ribeiro's On the Heavenly Spheres which I've reviewed elsewhere gives a very good starter and Ben Dykes Traditional Astrology For Today gives a good background and starter text. Again I've reviewed that elsewhere.

Finally on resources there's the thread

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=135390

Which is a good start, as I do a natal analysis of Bill Clinton as an illustration.

Much of that might well seem daunting, but that's because it is not an easy step. If you are interested, I could take you through the first steps and use your chart as an illustration of how a natal reading would proceed, especially as other's might find it useful. That would give you a basis from which to explore as and when time and money for books is available. I'd mainly use Lilly but also perhaps some Medieval and Hellenistic comments for comparison.

I recently found a book at Astrology Center of America called "Planetary Powers: The Morin Method" by Patti Tobin Brittain that looks like a modern alternative to buying the multi-volume Morin "Astrologia Gallica" material. It uses a workbook format that presents the concepts gradually, and is recommended for those who already have a basic knowledge of astrology. I see that it received a favorable review in The Mountain Astrologer this month.
 

Minderwiz

I recently found a book at Astrology Center of America called "Planetary Powers: The Morin Method" by Patti Tobin Brittain that looks like a modern alternative to buying the multi-volume Morin "Astrologia Gallica" material. It uses a workbook format that presents the concepts gradually, and is recommended for those who already have a basic knowledge of astrology. I see that it received a favorable review in The Mountain Astrologer this month.

Thanks for that tidbit - it's not a book I'm familiar with but as it's not too expensive I've ordered a copy and will post a review.
 

Flaxen

Minderwiz,

Thank you so much for your detailed response. I'm familiar with traditional techniques for horary so I hope it won't be too much of a change in mindset. I think I will go for Lilly and one of the others - probably Greenbaum's to start with.

I'm just really interested to see how it would interpret character and life path differently. It is really generous of you to offer help to get me started. I'll see if I can find a copy of my natal chart which could be easily attached.
 

Flaxen

Natal Chart

OK - I have ordered a couple of books which will be with me within a week or so.

I've attached my chart in case anyone is able to get us started with traditional interpretations. :)
 

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Minderwiz

OK - I have ordered a couple of books which will be with me within a week or so.

I've attached my chart in case anyone is able to get us started with traditional interpretations. :)

Thanks for posting a chart but it is much better to post your natal details - for traditional work the house system is important - few if any traditional Astrologers used Placidus (mainly because its seventeenth century and even Lilly and Morin did not have tables for Placidus houses). Also there's a bit of derived work that is easier if I use my Astrology software than peering at a rather small chart (my eyesight is not what it used to be :( )

To get you started though, we'll do a simple temperament calculation - for this you will need to identify,

The Ascendant sign
The Ascendant ruler
The Ascendant almuten (which is probably a new term for you)
The Moon sign
The Moon ruler
The Moon phase
Your season (calendar season) of birth

Start by listing all the information you can - but the Ascendant almuten may well change according to the degree and whether you were born during the day or night (after sunset and before sunrise). If you can't find a list of almutens for each sign leave that one out but do tell us which degree your Ascendant falls in.
 

Flaxen

Thanks for posting a chart but it is much better to post your natal details - for traditional work the house system is important - few if any traditional Astrologers used Placidus (mainly because its seventeenth century and even Lilly and Morin did not have tables for Placidus houses). Also there's a bit of derived work that is easier if I use my Astrology software than peering at a rather small chart (my eyesight is not what it used to be :( )

Oops! Sorry, Minderwiz. :)

The Ascendant sign = Cancer (degree '25 Can 35' - this is what is says on my chart)
The Ascendant ruler = Moon
The Ascendant almuten - not too sure about this one. Will do some research and come back to it.
The Moon sign = Pisces
The Moon ruler = Jupiter
The Moon phase = waxing moon (new moon on 9th, 1st quarter 16th)
Your season (calendar season) of birth = winter (13th Jan) in late afternoon, 4.30pm.
 

Minderwiz

Oops! Sorry, Minderwiz. :)

The Ascendant sign = Cancer (degree '25 Can 35' - this is what is says on my chart)
The Ascendant ruler = Moon
The Ascendant almuten - not too sure about this one. Will do some research and come back to it.
The Moon sign = Pisces
The Moon ruler = Jupiter
The Moon phase = waxing moon (new moon on 9th, 1st quarter 16th)
Your season (calendar season) of birth = winter (13th Jan) in late afternoon, 4.30pm.


The almuten of the Ascendant is the planet with the greatest essential dignity at that degree. That could mean calculation the essential dignities of every one of the planets, but it's reasonably easy to see that there are only a couple of possibilities:

The Moon as sign ruler - 5 points
Jupiter as exaltation ruler - 4 points

and Just possibly the Triplicity ruler, (3 points) if it also rules the Term2 (2 points) and Face (1 point) at 25 Cancer 35. Jupiter would need to rule Terms to overtake the Moon and rule the Face to equal the Moon.

Lilly used Ptolemy's rulerships for Triplicity and Terms, which give Mars as the Triplicity ruler (for Water) and Venus as the Terms ruler. So Mars, is out, as it only scores 3 points as Triplicity ruler and would only go up to 4 points if were also the Face ruler - it can't overtake the Moon.

Jupiter is neither the Triplicity ruler or the Terms ruler (Venus) so it can only equal the Moon if it is Face ruler. A check with the table of esential dignities that Lilly used, shows the Moon is the Face ruler.

So the Moon is Almuten of the Ascendant, its score of 6 points is well over that of Jupiter.

Note that if your Ascendant was between 6 degrees and 13 degrees Cancer, Jupiter would also be the Terms ruler and the Face ruler would be Venus, so Jupiter would have been the Alumten at that degree.

A number of software programs will work out the almuten's for you, including the freebie, Morinus, which is very well worth using.

https://sites.google.com/site/tradmorinus/morinus

You want the Traditional Version of the Program and this is the link.
 

Minderwiz

The first step in the analysis is to determine your temperament. We've already touched on this but for completeness I'll do a simple one. There are many different methods (though all have a common core) which vary in complexity. One of the easiest I've seen is provided by Dorian Greenbaum in her book on Temperament (mentioned earlier)

Temperament depends on the 4 humours, which in turn are combinations of two qualities - on the one hand Hot or Cold and on the other Dry or Moist. - The classic temperament types are:

Choleric - Hot and Dry
Sanguine - Hot and Moist
Melancholic - Cold and Dry
Phlegmatic - Cold and Moist

Choleric people are highly active, agressive, optimistic, assertive, impatient and demanding and organisers (though they tend to organise so that they get what they want, rather than what is objectively best).

Sanguine people are friendly, social, cheerful, unfocussed, optimistic and active

Melancholic people are thoughtful, deliberative, pessimistic, analytical, studious, planners and believe success comes from hard work and persistance but don't expect it for themselves not matter how hard they work.

Phlegmatic people are contemplative, slow, shy, reserved, resigned, but more adaptable than melancholics, even though both prefer the Status Quo.

Those are very brief psychological profiles, there are physical profiles as well but for the moment we'll leave those aside.

Although examples of all four types exist on their own, most people have a combination of two or more. Arguably the best temperament is to have a balance of all four

Signs fall into Temperaments as follows:

Fire signs are choleric
Air signs are sanguine
Earth signs are melancholic
Water sighs are phlegmatic.

So a Cancer Ascendant is going to add an element of the phlegmatic to a person's Temperament.

The planets too add to Temperaments:

Saturn adds melancholy

Jupiter adds sanguine

Mars adds choleric

Sun adds according to the season of the year (If the Sun is the Ascendant ruler, or almuten, or the ruler of the Moon, it is treated as choleric.

Venus and Mercury depend on their relationship to the Sun in Greenbaum's system, but often is described variously as somewhat cold and moist (a bit phlegmatic) or somewhat warm and moist (sanguine). Greenbaum takes Venus as sanguine if oriental and phlegmatic if occidental.

Mercury is often seen as taking it's temperament from any planets it is with (or aspected by). Greenbaum treats Mercury as sanguine when it is oriental and melancholic when occidental.

Moon adds temperament according to it's phase. If the Moon is Ascendant ruler or almuten or it's own ruler it is treated in that capacity as phlegmatic. (again using Greenbaum)

Greenbaum scores out of 10 as follows:

Ascendant sign 2 points
Ascendant ruler 1 point
Ascendant almuten 1 point
Moon sign 2 points
Moon ruler 1 point
Moon phase 1 point
Sun by season of birth 2 points

So for Flaxen we have:

Ascendant = Cancer = Phlegmatic (2 points)
Ascendant ruler = Moon = Phlegmatic (1 point)
Ascendant almuten = Moon = phlegmatic (1 point)
Moon sign = Pisces = Phlegmatic (2 points)
Moon ruler = Jupiter = Sanguine (1 point)
Moon phase = 1st Quarter = Sanguine (1 point)
Sun by season = Winter = Phlegmatic (2 points)

This gives a total of

Phlegmatic (8)
Sanguine (2)
Choleric (0)
Melancholic (0)

So you are a predominantly Phlegmatic person with a small dash of Sanguine. The latter allows some ability to deal with other people, if not acting as an antidote to the need to be private and your natural shyness.

More could be clearly developed from this prelimnary analysis but that would be through some reading and research about the four humours.

Whilst you will find more detailed methods, I think you will find that you come out as mainly phlegmatic However, Lilly, for example would add some weight for the combust Venus in close proximity to the Sun and for the Sun/Moon sextile. Saturn is also within orb of the Ascendant so Saturn too may well contribute some melancholy.

I think these might lessen the balance towards the Phlegmatic Tempeament but iI don't expent it to do more than mitigate, it will not offset it