Natal Chart with Traditional Astrology

Thank you!

It's interesting how much more emphasis is placed on the ascendant and moon compared to modern astrology. It seems like your sun sign doesn't figure in this analysis at all. Is it looked at further into the process once the temperament has been assessed?

Flaxen said:

Thank you!

It's interesting how much more emphasis is placed on the ascendant and moon compared to modern astrology. It seems like your sun sign doesn't figure in this analysis at all. Is it looked at further into the process once the temperament has been assessed?

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Well the better Psychological Astrologers will do an elements analysis, in which Ascendant, Moon and Sun get extra prominence - and the element balance is a direct descendant from the four humours. The moder approach includes all the planets though, including the outers, whereas the traditional approach considers only the key places - Ascendant, Moon, Sun and their rulers, plus sometimes the Lord of the Geniture (strongest planet).

The tradition covers some 2,000 years, so you will not get unanimity on temperament assessment, but you will get temperament expressed using the four humours, not according to 'Sun signs'. Some writers will include the Sun's ruler - Saturn in your case (and important because it is within orb of the Ascendant) - but a lot of them do not.

You will find a more detailed coverage in Avelar and Ribeiro, towards the end of the book.

The Sun only gets further treatment in predictions - it is one of the 5 key places that determine the length of life (the others being Moon, Ascendant, Part of Fortune and Pre-natal lunation) and one of the 5 key places for profections and directions - the others being Ascendant, MC, Moon and Part of Fortune.

The Sun is lord of the heavens, so it is not treated lightly but Astrology is never, ever boiled down to the Sun alone, in the tradition (nor for that matter in good modern approaches).

You were born just after sunset, with the Moon above the horizon - so for you the Moon is far more important - not just from the temperament point of view but her role as ruler of the Ascendant gives her a particularly strong role and , she is a nocturnal planet, nocuturnally placed in a nocturnal chart (that is she is above the horizon after sunset) and placed in a nocturnal sign - a condition the Arabs called Hayz and she is waxing!

Greenbaum's book arrived yesterday. I've found it very illuminating so far and I like how she has found a method for assessing temperament that seems to be accurate.

Reading through it so far though, I feel like I have even more questions and am very interested in the predictive element. Just need Lilly to arrive so I can get cracking.

Minderwiz, is Morinus the best traditional programme available? I couldn't quite work out how to download it.

I like Greenbaum a lot and I think you'll enjoy the book.

Morinus is great and it's free. The only other program I'd recommend is Janus but it's expensive, though. you can download and use the full version free for a month as a trial.

I'll post links and download instructions for both this evening as I'm using my smartphone at the moment.

Minderwiz said:

I'll post links and download instructions for both this evening as I'm using my smartphone at the moment.

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I had another go this morning and I think I've downloaded it successfully.

Flaxen said:

I had another go this morning and I think I've downloaded it successfully.

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The download is a zip file,which means that you will have to extract it. Double clicking on the file starts the process and you will be prompted for a directory/folder to extract to. I created one called Astrology beforehand but I think you can create a new folder during the process if you wish.

Once Morinus has extracted open the new folder and locate the file morinus.exe and right click on it, then make a shortcut. Copying and pasting this to your desktop will. make Morinus easy to run in future.

If you ge stuck just give me a pm

Janus

Janus is $149 - about £100 - from Astrology House software. I've tried the 30 day trial, and I liked the program, but I still can't convince myself that I need to part with that sort of money. Janus has a lot of traditional features and can work out accidental and essential dignities and give an overall picture (though you should recognise that you can't really add the two together, it's a guide and nothing more).

It runs well and can now do accurate primary directions and solar returns but then so can Morinus. If you really have to have some of it's features, then it's a good program and can do things that Morinus cannot - such as print charts and reports - with Morinus you have to save the chart as a bmp file and then print it out using Windows Paint or similar software.

By all means check it out - but for a beginner, I would not recommend that sort of outlay (and some other programs are even more expensive) - it's not essential. But if you feel the need to go beyond Morinus and some other freeware traditional programs, then it's worth considering.

It's all downloaded fine and I've managed to input my details and produce a chart without any problems.

Interestingly, Mercury has ended up with the highest score for dignity.

Lilly book 3 arrived today and I'm really enjoying dipping into it. It is so comprehensive - the section on longevity and diseases is quite entertaining! Book 1 + 2 will have to wait until my next pay day. There is quite a lot to get my head round and I think my best approach will be to look at an area/house at a time and get to grips with that.

I'm diving in to my traditional interpretations with the help of Lilly, Dykes and Greenbaum - quite a formidable team.

I'm having a bit of a quandary about whether to use whole sign houses or placidus for a natal chart. Ben Dykes seems to prefer a whole sign approach and I like how it seems 'neater' but it does mean that a couple of my planets shift into different houses and signs. What system do you use?

Also, a couple of my planets are retrograde which I take to mean that they are in detriment. Would I look at that planet's more negative qualities to interpret my birth chart?

Flaxen said:

Also, a couple of my planets are retrograde which I take to mean that they are in detriment. Would I look at that planet's more negative qualities to interpret my birth chart?

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I'll deal with that first. Retrograde is not the same thing as Detriment. The former is an accidental debility, the latter is an essential debility. An accidental dignity has nothing to do with sign placement but is related either to the position of the planet in a chart (house placement) or to it's position relative to the sun (and planets are seen to be retrograde at certain points in their solar cycle). Detriment is related to a planet's sign placement - when it is in the sign opposite it's rulership. Modern Astrologers tend to treat 'retrograde' as acting oddly compared to the planet's natural disposition. Traditional Astrologers, will treat 'retrograde' according to the chart reading - in a horary chart it might indicate a lost possession becoming found.

In a natal chart it's effect depends on the overall balance of strengths and weaknesses (bot accidental and essential dignities), in some circumstances, where the overall balance is towards the weak end then it can inhibit that planet's expression significantly, at other times it may not have an obvious effect at all, I tend not to put anything of significance on it at all but accept that it might show some minor oddities in behaviour.

Flaxen said:

I'm diving in to my traditional interpretations with the help of Lilly, Dykes and Greenbaum - quite a formidable team.

I'm having a bit of a quandary about whether to use whole sign houses or placidus for a natal chart. Ben Dykes seems to prefer a whole sign approach and I like how it seems 'neater' but it does mean that a couple of my planets shift into different houses and signs. What system do you use?

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I use Regiomontanus, a quadrant system, which is the system used by Lilly and Morin (and indeed virtually all seventeenth century Astrologers. However the switch to using quadrant systems, was a slow one. In the Hellenistic period, Whole Sign houses were the norm, with the earliest quadrant system (Porphry) being used towards the end, for Primary Directions. By the early part of the Medieval period, the Whole Sign system was giving way to Equal Houses and then to quadrant systems mainly Alcabitus and Campanus.

This seems to suggest that the Equal and Whole Sign houses were found to be inferior but it's not quite as simple as that. Much of the ealier systems of prediction depended on Time Lords, such systems as zodiacal releasing in Hellenistic times, and Firdaria in the Arabic period and also the use of Profections - none of these systems is based on the rotation of the Earth. From the late Hellenistic period some use was made of Primary Directions and these were increasingly used in the Medieval period, especially towards the end. Primary Directions requires the use of a quadrant system, and I suspect that having to use such systems for predictions, naturally led to them being used for natal work as well. I'm sure it would have been possible to use Whole Sign and Equal House systems for the natal reading and then the quadrant systems such as Alcabitius or Regiomontanus for predictions. However, what's possilbe is not necessarily easy and it makes it a real pain if a planet is in one House for the natal reading and in another for predictions - so they ended up standardising on a quadrant system.

If I were you, I'd drop Placidus for your traditional work - despite the fact it was developed in the seventeenth century, it was never used widely till after the end of the 'tradition' I would suggest either Regiomontanus, Alcabitius or Porphry. Porphry is easy to calculate on your own, if you don't have any software - simply divide the arc between Ascendant and MC into three equal parts and extend those parts across the chart to determine the 12th and 11th cusps and 5th and 6th cusps. Then do the same for the arc between Ascendant and IC to get the 2nd and 3rd and 8th and 9th cusps.