To Tell Or Not To Tell...

starseer said:

My grandmother, teaching me astrology, did not choose to disclose the statement about what I mentioned for obvious reasons, and I understand that. Once I was well into my 30s, she decides throw it into a conversation because at that point she was probably tired of waiting for this "prediction" to come to pass, as she was probably equally disappointed in me.

My point is, being that my grandmother is an Astrologer herself, I would have preferred that she not have even mentioned it all. There was no point and it served no purpose. As an Astrologer she seemed to lack compassion at that moment.

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The problem is that the astrologer was your grandmother.

In the moment of the discussion she wasn't being your astrologer, she was being a family member with an emotional attachment to you and expectations. That makes all the difference. It's almost impossible for me to read cards for my mother properly because I am too close to her and because I know too much. I want to make her happy.

I don't think it was 'lack' of her as an astrologer, although isolating an information in the chart and turning it into an expectation about how the other should or should not be/live is not positive. But that' usually done in moments of fight and emotional outbursts.

One I asked my father (who is an anesthesiologist) why he couldn't be the one taking care of me during a long surgery I was about to have. He said that if anything bad happened, he'd poo and pee himself and not act as he should (his words exactly!). The emotional attachment makes it hard for you to be professional in what you are doing - professional means keeping your expectations and prejudices out of the table.

starseer said:

Yes I agree with you here, but I always seem to know Astrologers who can look at a famous individual's chart in hindsight and say, "AH Yes, see, here is this person's signature for fame" as if there aren't 100 other people born on the same day at the same time who are not famous. The dichotomy is interesting.

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Hindsight is good for study, but not good for real life. Because in real life you are looking at existences that are still growing and developing themselves. I have a book on Hitler natal chart and, while it was good for to see how the elements of a natal chart connect, I think the author overanalyzed everything and under a horrible light. She could, because everyone knows who Adolf Hitler was.

Now I wonder if anyone has done Adolf's chart when he was a pre-World War I unsuccessful painter, with no money, suffering with the death of his beloved mother and living a shelter for homeless man... would they see "big scary evil fascist dictatorship" potentials in his map? Maybe they'd see he was someone with a certain difficulty in expressing emotions, someone whose the mother had spoilt a bit too much, someone with natural oratory skills that could be developed, or perhaps would show his tendency to harbor negative emotions and be intolerant. It could also point to his interest in art and in beautiful things, his love for animals and his health problems.

But none of this makes someone a fascist dictator. None of this is a clear sign of someone who'll cause an Holocaust and a war.

Would the astrologer know for sure how all this dots would connect in his life (or if they would)? Just from the natal chart, I guess no.

Unless someone used horary astrology for him, but back then he was no one. So I was impressed about how the author of the book I read managed to turn every aspect in his map as negative, cold and violent. Maybe it's true to some degree, but for me this is the power of the hindsight - one you don't have when casting chart for living people who still are building their lives.

Marina said:

The problem is that the astrologer was your grandmother.

In the moment of the discussion she wasn't being your astrologer, she was being a family member with an emotional attachment to you and expectations. That makes all the difference. It's almost impossible for me to read cards for my mother properly because I am too close to her and because I know too much. I want to make her happy.

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I have the same problem reading for my wife

Marina said:

Hindsight is good for study, but not good for real life. Because in real life you are looking at existences that are still growing and developing themselves. I have a book on Hitler natal chart and, while it was good for to see how the elements of a natal chart connect, I think the author overanalyzed everything and under a horrible light. She could, because everyone knows who Adolf Hitler was.

Now I wonder if anyone has done Adolf's chart when he was a pre-World War I unsuccessful painter, with no money, suffering with the death of his beloved mother and living a shelter for homeless man... would they see "big scary evil fascist dictatorship" potentials in his map? Maybe they'd see he was someone with a certain difficulty in expressing emotions, someone whose the mother had spoilt a bit too much, someone with natural oratory skills that could be developed, or perhaps would show his tendency to harbor negative emotions and be intolerant. It could also point to his interest in art and in beautiful things, his love for animals and his health problems.

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This is a very good point. I don't think anyone could have predicted Hitler's career from his natal chart alone. Indeed I remember John Frawley using Hitler's chart as stick to beat Sun sign Astrology because he argued it couldn't explain Hitler - I'm not sure if Traditional Astrology fares much better on the natal chart alone, even with hindsight. A satisfactory explanation would probably require the examination of a large number of derived charts cast for particular periods or events in his life. Now Hitler was known to be fascinated with Astrology, so he might well have consulted an Astrologer in the 1920's. Now if the Astrologer successfully read his chart his dilemma might be:

Should I tell him.... and Can I deflect him?

For those who might like to think about it, I've attached a copy of his chart

Minderwiz said:

This is a very good point. I don't think anyone could have predicted Hitler's career from his natal chart alone. Now Hitler was known to be fascinated with Astrology, so he might well have consulted an Astrologer in the 1920's. Now if the Astrologer successfully read his chart his dilemma might be:

Should I tell him....

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Imagine having THAT burden!

But also, this leads me to my next thought, which is the practice of Intuitive Astrology. I do it, Minderwiz I'm sure you are intuitive, as are many Astrologers. Where you can just look at a chart without much synthesis and start rattling off information on a querent's life without skipping a beat. You just intuitively pick up on things, as if the information is being whispered in your ear and you're just spitting it back out. You "see" things, you sense it. You're looking at a chart, but you just stare at it much as you would a Tarot card, looking past it while information comes to you. The signatures may not be saying much but you just "get" it. Perhaps these kinds of Astrologers are extraordinary in that they have the discernment to pick up on the potentiality of a Hitler's chart, or someone/some event that's comparable.

But as Minderwiz mentioned...how can one possibly deal with such a situation in a constructive and productive way?

Intuitive ?

I don't feel comfortable with the word "intuitive" as it has connotations of being psychic or something along that line. Being able to just "talk" off of a chart is due to many factors such as extensive study and understanding, significant experience in reading many charts in which you have gotten feedback, skills and aptitude for reading and synthesizing both interrelated and conflicting symbolic patterns.

If there are highly specific comments that go beyond what mere symbols in combination can convey, then we might consider some word such as "intuitive". I would suggest that this process probably arises out of the astrologer trying to express an analogy for what several interconnected symbols or patterns could portray as "possibilities." When we try to express an example we tend to create a scene or situation that can be used to describe what we mean. It is probably in this process' ending statement that something is blurted out that has deep and clear meaning to the client.

I'll provide a couple of examples. Reading a chart for a lady before a large group meeting, I saw 12th house factors and other patterns that related to the planet(s) in the 12th (I don't remember the details at this time) and casually stated that she was a "closet astrologer." She and her friends were stunned because in her small living space she had her astrological resources and equipment and books in a closet ---- from this closet she pulled out a small desk to do her astrological work..

Another example: I was counseling a young man who was a homosexual and still not sure of his inclinations or how others around him might react to his emotional life and direction. His mother had tried to make him girl-like in his younger years and then pulled away from him in his early teen years. I had seen a time in his life about a year earlier than our reading that suggested serious contact with another person, an older person. I noted this time (date) and commented "Where is an older women when you need one." He remarked that he had initiated an affair with her but that she broke it off because he was too young and unsure of himself. For some complex set of reasons (we didn't finish the session) he appears to have decided that if women couldn't accept him as a male he would be a female. A few years ago I saw him at an arts and crafts store doing product demonstrations. He recognized me and commented that his choices were still proving to be a struggle for him.

So, I feel that intuition is not quite the correct word. But, from my examples, you might conclude differently. There is, as I see it, componets of examples, word selection, un-thinking utterances, and hard-to-grasp symbol associations that go into this "talking the chart" process. This is the best that I can suggest. Dave

It all depends on what you mean by 'intuitive'. Dave sees associations with 'psychic' and that too begs a question. Without going into a very long and rambling explanation, I think there's a mix of things involved. A l arge amount is, as Dave says, study, practice and being able to break away from the 'cook book' approach and recognise the variety of meaning of Astrological symbols.

In many ways it's like learning to drive a car. At first there's the controls to learn, there's the rules of the road to learn and bot have to be applied at the same time - a great conscious effort. However as you become more experienced it becomes an automatic reacion - you're conditioned to driving the car, you don't think deliberately about the technical control side, you just do it. You even begin to 'read' the road - and other drivers. You can tell by the 'jizz' of other vehicles what they are likely to do - your anticipation sharpens. There's no logical process involved but a subconscious application of previous knowledge and experience to a new situation, leading to action that you can't fully explain - but if you're an experienced driver those applications can avoid accidents and keep you and your passengers safe.

Is that 'intuition' or is it a 'learned response' - it's not quite the latter because the situations can vary but the good driver (and the good Astrologer) recognises some elements of a pattern - joins up the missing lines and acts.

There is also an element of instinct - animals (and humans are animals) seem to be pre-programmed to deal with danger and that too comes to the aid of the good driver. I'm not sure though that such instinct comes to the aid of the Astrologer. It's possible though that we also draw conclusions instinctively from the body language of people we read for and form impressions that, combined with what we read in the chart, allows us to make those mental leaps - to make the 'connection' between chart and person.

Would Dave have reached the same conclusion if he had not had the subject present?

Without the study and practice though, the connection will not be made.