XVI - La Maison Diev

jmd

Diana, I like your perception of the circlets being described as manna from Heaven. In a reading, this could certainly be one perspective which could come up.

The freedom (from the bondage of the previous card) which you mention fits perfectly when one considers the sequence of the cards. Given that I also pair them, as I have mentioned in a couple of other threads, this card also symbolises, for me, the destruction of the existing 'home' in order for the new one to be able to emerge.

Here, the arrow of 'cupid' (on VI) has become a lightning bolt which destroys the existing home of the mother (the crown) as the lover and his beloved feel in turmoil in their new undertaking: any decision, once made, has consequences which alters the status-quo.

But to return to more 'formal' depictions, I have finally scanned the Cathedral depiction I mentioned in the first post of this thread.

Attached is what I've called the 'Amiens XVI' - as I presume it comes from the Amiens Cathedral, not the Reims as mentioned by Gettier.
 

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Supletion

very interesting points, Diana, i liked the concept of "the Tarot journey has to continue", never thought of it that way.

an interesting point at the marseilles versions of this card, is that the lightning (or whatever it is, doesnt look much like a lightning, in fact this card has always reminded me of a birthday party) doesnt destroy the tower, it looks more like the crown on the top of the tower is opened to accept and contain the "lightning".
this might show two things:
one, that the strike from above isnt a complete surprise, the subject has known of it and prepared for it, and he is accepting his fate and opening to "what comes from above".
two, it might be that the lightning is something wanted, that its acceptance was the purpose of the tower. only the shock is too strong, and might have a disastrous impact on the subject - the question is, will he know how to handle it. for example, it could be a religious stracture finally being filled with presence from above; something like a job promotion, or getting some kind of a higher rank, or finally performing a project or a plan to which the subject has prepared for a long time; or even something like winning the lottery, which is known to have a disasterous impact on some people who have won.

i usually see this card as an advice - adjust to the change, dont hold on desperately to what belongs to the past. the two characters might show the two possible approaches to this situation. none of them looks like it's falling - but more like hanging in the air, in that moment when the change has happened and you have to decide how to cope with it. the right one, the one falling out of the door (in camoin's version), tried to hold on to the tower and stayed in it even after the lightning stroke - and now he's crawling out of the door with that miserable look on his face, he can no longer hold on to his old spot and looks like he's too busy greeving for it. the left guy jumped off of the tower as soon as he realised its gone, and now he's free. the look on his face isnt miserable at all, the contrary, he seems to find interest in the ground, his "new position", and his hands look like they're exploring it.
here i may be going abit too far with the drawing on the card, but both characters are reaching their hands to the green plants on the ground. the right guy got "the bigger plant", but his face is still sad, he cannot appreciate it having his mind stuck in the past. the left guy, with the more "modest" plant, still examines it with interest, planning to make the best out of it.

click here to view camoin's Maison Diev, to understand what im blabbering about ;)

oh oh and, click here to view my own self made version of the card :D

--Supletion.
 

jmd

I personally consider that the Camoin representation of the lower figure 'falling' from a doorway at the front of the Tower is an unfortunate representation.

As I have mentioned before, there is a clear difference between the ambiguity represented in other decks, an oral tradition which allows for the possibility that the figure at the rear is falling through a doorway, and removing this ambiguity through altering imagery... which I just do not consider correct.

I'll also post another related picture another time, for for now, I attach the Camoin, as those links posted above did not work for me.

Attached is the Camoin 1998 version.
 

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Supletion

ah, i didnt consider that the links would not be accessible for connection outside of the country. thanks for bringing this to my knowlegde.

posting images is difficult since free hosts have remote control, meaning they limit viewing images on their pages from external websites. i coded a short ASP script that is supposed to solve it, if it doesnt, i must give up :(

Camoin's Maison Deiv
My own version
please tell me if those links work.

about the man falling through the door, i tend to agree. im also not fond of clearifying a certain aspect of a card while defacing another (which is very common in newer decks). thats why i prefer Marteau's (Grimaud) traditional deck. camoin's deck, although it is a "traditional" marseilles deck, sometimes shows some aspects that werent originally so clear, such as this one, the tail of the left boy at The Sun card (as an assiciation to The Devil card), the eggs at The Fool, The High Priestess and The Emperor cards, and more.
 

jmd

Mistletoe! Your links work well! ... and thank you for posting your work... catboxer, yourself and I have now done so, and keenly await Kaz, Diana and other contributors doing likewise ;)!

Despite some of Camoin's removal of various ambiguities, the deck remains my personal favourite - I mentioned somewhere else that when I obtained the Camoin, I sat with it for most of the day, looking into it, making comparisons, and making a full four pages of notes of minutia which I would need to change to 'perfect' it. Of the ambiguities which they removed, the two principal ones I would re-instate are the hind legs of the two horses of VII the Chariot, and the re-positioning of the 'rear door' on XVI the Tower.

Likewise, and though an absolute classic of a deck, I do not personally consider Marteau's colouration of the Grimaud accurate either. For me, the Conver deck remains the basis from which I judge other decks, and here the Grimaud falls further than the Camoin from the Tower of the Being of Tarot.

The attachment shows a depiction of Saturn falling from his high position, following his demise (I left the book from which the scan comes on my office desk, and will therefore have to provide bibliographic details later).

Attached is Saturn falling.
 

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catboxer

Interestingly enough, hexagram number 16 of the I Ching is Thunder over the Earth. The judgment reads like this:

16. Giving: Thunder / Earth

The rumbling of thunder will clear the path. Remain hopeful, as daylight will not be long in coming. Allow the thunder to pass and you will regain the strength to resume your journey.

The fall of Saturn (Greek Cronos) is an appropriate image to associate wih this card as well, since the old god was overthrown by means of a revolution, and the picture on XVI shows a revolution in progress. The old, seemingly solid structure is demolished, and once recovery from the trauma of destruction has been effected, life can resume, and those who survived the disasters of revolution will be more knowledgeable than before.

Cronos provides a link between this card and number IX (Time, or the Old Man), since the disaster shown in the lightning-struck tower is the kind of event that creates a break or reference point in time. Saturn, out of jealousy, devoured his children, just as time devours all that it creates. But when Zeus threw his father from heaven, he fell nine days and nights before reaching earth, and another nine days and nights down to Tartaros. For all those 18 days and nights, time was in suspense, and afterward the universe was re-ordered.

Cronos also links the Tower with trump XIII, who in many depictions carries the scythe with which Cronos castrated and murdered his own father, Ouranos. Time and Death are most intimately related.

For the past year I have been unable to look at this card without seeing a representation of the disasters of September 11. It was bloody and traumatic, and it finally forced us to acknowledge what kind of world we're living in. This is the shock of unwanted knowledge which, if it doesn't kill us, makes us stronger. The lightning strikes; the truth can no longer be denied.

Supletion: That's a very good looking Tower card. It looks like a collage, but not one that's a cut-and-paste job. Did you use some sort of computer program to put it together?
 

Supletion

catboxer:
indeed, it is a collage done with a computer program - PhotoShop5.5, i use it for all of my cards (though i've finished only five so far).
 

catboxer

I just now recognized Supletion's Tower (I couldn't get over how familiar it looked before I finally placed it). Coit Tower in San Francisco, n'est ce pas?

Reminds me of that song by the old Bay Area group, the Flying Burrito Brothers:

"This old earthquake's gonna leave me in the poorhouse;
It seems like this whole town's insane;
But on the thirty-first floor, a gold-plated door
Won't keep out the Lord's burnin' rain."