New to Astrology- Where to start?

Barleywine

There is one suggestion that is seldom made, yet it can accelerate the learning process greatly. Advertise in a local newspaper, at a library bulletin board, or other such place to find others interested in studying astrology. You would not be looking for a teacher or someone who sells canned reports or gives lectures. You need only others having a similar inclination as you do to study astrology.

This is ideal if you can pull it off. I had it going only once, about thirty years ago, but all of the members scattered after a few months. Tried again a couple of times (most recently on Meetup) but the population here is too small and conservative to draw any interest from. Other groups we've been involved in have been niche activities with no interest in discussion of ideas outside of their niche. It seems that leader-follower arrangements (usually involving donations) are easier to find, but it's not what I've been angling for.
 

MandMaud

'choose a system that you like' - I'll take that and run with it! at least for a while.

I knew there was a lot to say about house systems! I'm feeling as I did when I used to watch the Open University programmes on BBC2. It all felt as as if it was making sense but I couldn't have repeated it back to you, but I enjoyed the company I was keeping... :)

Barleywine, I think the concept of chart rectification is what I have thought of doing to determine my stbx's Ascendant - not knowing time of birth - since without Asc it's not possible to do much is it? I've only got as far as reading Asc descriptions (equivalent to LWB really) trying to match them up to his personality; the next step would be getting a chart for each hypothetical birth time (24 of them, I suppose) and comparing them to him in the same way. Am I being silly?

Thank you for the AstroAmerica link. I'm surprised that the newsletter's almanac for the week uses GMT when it's American... anyway without looking any further, I noticed Sun, Venus and Mercury all in Scorpio in the 3rd house (John Cleese this is)- in my mind I'm joining that up with his take on psychology (the Life and How to Survive It books with Robin Skynner)... at least I think I'm talking sense here... ;)

I'll shut up now :D much better eavesdropping on the knowledgeable than splashing around out of my depth!

mm
 

Barleywine

I think the concept of chart rectification is what I have thought of doing to determine my stbx's Ascendant - not knowing time of birth - since without Asc it's not possible to do much is it? I've only got as far as reading Asc descriptions (equivalent to LWB really) trying to match them up to his personality; the next step would be getting a chart for each hypothetical birth time (24 of them, I suppose) and comparing them to him in the same way. Am I being silly?

I noticed Sun, Venus and Mercury all in Scorpio in the 3rd house (John Cleese this is)- in my mind I'm joining that up with his take on psychology (the Life and How to Survive It books with Robin Skynner)... at least I think I'm talking sense here... ;)

I'm probably committing heresy here by loading you up with this stuff at your current level of development. Anyway, beyond the basic technique of looking at Ascendant/Sun/Moon combinations from a character analysis perspective, the gist of rectification is to determine the timing of as many significant life events as possible and then look at planetary transits and progressions or directions for the times of those events to see if they make any important contacts to factors in the natal chart (primarily the Ascendant and Midheaven). The idea is to tweak the birth time used in the natal chart to bring those contacts to a greater degree of exactness. That saves having to analyze a large number of different birth charts.

Regarding John Cleese, I would have guessed that he has a prominent 3rd House (and, for that matter, 9th House), since he always seemed like the most verbal and literary of the bunch. I always loved his rather arch wordplay.

ETA: Reconsidering your first point, you can certainly get a broad idea of a possible Ascendant from the person's appearance and outward manner since it represents the face we show to the world, but I might start with the Moon sign since you will only have to choose between a couple of signs (it only moves about 13 degrees in 24 hours). For example, if you had a choice between Scorpio Moon for an early birth time and Sagittarius Moon for a later one, ask yourself is the person emotionally rather closed and guarded (except when angered), or is he generally very frank and open? That choice could help you narrow down how many different ascending signs you have to play with, which could make that choice a bit more obvious.
 

Minderwiz

I'm probably committing heresy here ......

Not sure what the punishment is for heretic Astrologers......burnt at the astrolabe perhaps or cast into the Via Combusta :)

Rectification is mainly used to improve the accuracy of forecasts from the chart, and is best carried out using the timing of about half a dozen or more known events. The problem is that astrological timings are not 'clockwork' there's some element of error in any prediction in terms to timing. So at best rectification gives us something better than we had to start with, but it doesn't necessarily give us the 'correct time' Even worse there's a wide variety of forecasting techniques, each with it's own set of sworn devotees, so which do we use to retro calculate birth time? And you'll find a large number of answers to that one, though Astrolabe Software have made a lot of money out of their rectification program, Jugsaw.

he 24 charts approach is not really a good idea, as it excludes all the intermediate timings, which might make a planet angular or shift it into another house and trying to balance all those possible combinations of planetary change over the day becomes brain pain.

Instead, try to do some research from relatives - what time of day was the native born? Even if relatives can't remember the exact time, you can usually narrow it down to a general period such as morning, afternoon and evening, or even 'before breakfast' or 'after supper'. That will leave you with a period of hopefully manageable charts, Then take the nearest Solar event...Sun rise, Local Solar Noon, Sunset, or even Local Midnight and take that as your first chart. It might end up being the chart you always use, though when you're into predictions, you can try rectification to improve it.

If you can get something closer, such as 'between 10:00 and 12:00' take the midpoint and use the chart for that time. Again you can modify in the light of experience. On the other hand if you are left with zilch....such as no one has any recall or the native was adopted, do a solar noon chart and use that. There will obviously be more error, but the Moon position will be on average, only about 6 degrees out. Life events again may help you to rectify when you gain confidence to do that
 

Barleywine

If you know the exact time of a previous life event with some confidence (say, the time of an automobile accident, a wedding, a death or the start of major surgery) and you have a reliable ephemeris and know a bit about interpolation (talkin' "old school" now :)), seems to me the transits for past events should be easy to nail down with precision. Progressions and directions are a different matter since there are a number of different techniques that give different results. Generally, though, the Moon is the only "planet" that moves far enough by secondary progression to make much of a difference, unless one of the other planets happens to cross, or make a major aspect to, one of the natal angles. Solar arc direction gives more movement to most of the chart factors, perhaps giving it more usefulness than secondary (or "day-for-a-year") progressions. Primary directions are probably the most precise, but I haven't spent enough time with them yet to speak from experience. I have also used solar returns to help in evaluating natal chart accuracy against events, but haven't gone to the level of lunar returns yet.

All in all, though, I find rectification to be fascinating and even fun; I also think the time spent doing it has given me charts that I'm more comfortable with than simply going with a "noon" chart. Of course, it doesn't mean they're "right," just that they click with the timing of things that have occurred in the natives' lives.
 

dadsnook2000

Gmt

I thought that I'd offer a comment on the prior mention of GMT --- Greenwich Meridian Time. This is actually a very useful way to provide a proper chart time, even in an American (U.S.) market.

When one is relocating charts, differing time zones and differing applications of Daylight Savings Time adjustments may come into play. All is not nicely set up state by state, but often varies by county within a state. Using GMT assures that the correct time is always used and that the chart's angles (and the resulting houses) are properly presented.

Some ways of working with progressions and directions can present a chart time or MC which is related to GMT or ST (Sidereal Time). This assures, again, that the proper chart presentation results.

Not all software programs, such as those "on-line" applications, will permit one to enter GMT but insist on local time entry. Still, every astrologer should be familiar and comfortable with using GMT when it works best. Dave
 

Minderwiz

Thanks for pointing that out Dave. I nearly did, but thought that as I live in the UK, the point might be seen as biased LOL. Since 1884 the Greenwich Meridian has become the Prime Meridian for measuring longitudes on Earth. Actually most international ephemerides now use GMT. or Universal Time (UT) as it is usually referred to globally, for stating the daily planetary positions (usually at midnight).

Most Astrology Software either uses the Swiss Ephemeris of similar ephemeris which follows the conventions for the paper versions, and calculates planetary positions for midnight UT, on any day.Thia holds foe websites too, astro.com using the Swiss Ephemeris.

As Dave says this facilitates accurate charts, especially for those of us who are calculating charts for people born all around the world but are members of Aeclectic. It would be horrendous to have to use local ephemerides from many countries just to calculate charts for friends and clients, and for astro.com which has users from all over the world, such local versions would make it impossible to offer the srevice that they do.
 

GoldenPhi

I use Regiomontanus houses in my work. Recently I came across a podcast on Traditional Astoology Radio by Chris Brennan.

http://traditionalastrologyradio.com/

His argument is that the original system for Topical Houses, was Whole Sign Houses (as still used in Jyotish). Quadrant Houses were invented and developed by Hellenistic Astrologers for one purpose, to measure the strength of planets in the calculation of the length of life. Strength here being that familiar to modern Astrologers, Angularity or the lack of it.

He argues that these two systems of House division lived side by side up till the end of the first millennium. From the middle of the Hellenistic period, there was some use of the MC, to throw additional light on what we would now call career and profession. and this introduced some topicality into the use of quadrant Houses, but they were still used in conjunction with Whole Sign Houses.

At the end of the Millennium, Whole Sign Houses suddenly fell out of faviour, he postulates that this was because of errors in understanding by Astrologers, and also the influence of leading Astrologers of the time....I think he mentioned Ma'sha Allah but I haven't double checked.

If Brennan is right, then the argument about what quadrant House system is the 'correct' one is moot. It's function is to determine angularity or otherwise, not to accurately reflect an idealist notion of a 'perfect' representation in two dimensions of three dimensional reality, as seen from a particular location. That means that a simple system such as Porphry is every bit as good as a more complex system such as Regiomontanus, Placidus or Koch.

So the implication is that you should choose a system that you like, and not worry about abstract mathematical ideas. Any quadrant system will serve the purpose of the Astrologer, and even the Whole Sign system is perfectly valid.

If you want to give emphasis to the mathematics, then that's fine but I don't really think that will lead to any better predictive work, because it's angularity that counts most. Whether a planet is cadent or succedent is not a big deal.

It's an interesting take, but so far I've not had the courage to throw Regiomantus out of the window and move to Whole Signs and Porphry LOL.
Whether a planet is cadent or succedent must mean something more than just "not as strong" as when in an angular house
 

Minderwiz

Whether a planet is cadent or succedent must mean something more than just "not as strong" as when in an angular house

The comment of mine that you quoted was mainly related to quadrant houses and their use in the original system of Astrology. In that system, quadrant houses were primarily used to determine planetary strength and gave a ranking of Angular houses being the ones that were most likely to see a planet expressing itself in the chart, for good or bad. Succedent or as they called them Post ascensional followed in terms of strength and finally the cadent houses or Declines as they were then referred to have spent their energy and offer little to build on. The post ascensional and Declines flank the angle, giving a set of three houses, referred to as an angular triad.

Now you are quite right that there's more to the houses than simply being one of the gauges of planetary strength. Two further factors need to be considered to understand the nature of the houses. The first of these is the relation of the house to the Ascendant and the second is a system now lost to modern Astrology, the planetary Joys.

Dealing with them in order: houses which are related to the Ascendant by a major aspect were seen as being 'conducive th business'. They are places where things can be done. Houses which are not configured to the Ascendant by a major aspect are Averse or sometimes described as idle It's difficult for a planet to express its naturn well in an idle house. This has the effect of empowering the first, tenth, eleventh, ninth, seventh, fifth and third houses as places for 'business'. The twelfth, eighth, sixth and second houses are idle and not very productive. Of these the eighth and second are succedent houses, the twelfth and sixth are cadent.

The second factor is the classical system of joys. Each planet had a place where it was able to perform best. For the Sun this is the ninth house, for Jupiter it was the eleventh and for Saturn the twelfth. These three are the diurnal or day planets. The Moon took the third, Venus the fifth and Mars the sixth. These are the three nocturnal or night planets. Mercury, which could be either diurnal or nocturnal took the first house.

Thus The ninth house, which casts a dominating trine to the Ascendant, symbolises solar things, such as the law, organised religion, and philosophy. It's a cadent house, so like all cadent houses it was associated with travel. Travel was generally seen as dangerous and risky but given the ninth's trine to the Ascendant and the Sun having it's joy there, it is the most favourable cadent house and travel is much less risky.

The Moon joys in the third. That's the house of the Goddess, of vulgar or pagan (literally) religion. It is also related to travel as it's cadent but it is related to the Ascendant through a sextile. So ninth and third became the houses of favourable travel.

Venus joys in the fifth and that house, which is related to the Ascendant by a subordinate trine, became related to Venal activities, such as enjoying yourself, sex, the leisure industry, and childen (the ultimate pleasure not just from the sex that precedes them but that you now have someone to look after you in your old age. All of these were linked to good fortune.

Mars and Saturn also joy in cadent houses. Mars in the sixth, which came to symbolise Mars like activities, such as accidents, injuries and wounds, and slaves, all things linked to bad fortune.

Saturn symbolised enemies, travel resulting in bad outcomes, prisons, hard work without reward, suffering, All activities that you took on but which went wrong.

Jupiter joys in the eleventh house and that house is also sextile to the Ascendant. The house is assoiated with Jovian activities, such as friends and friendship, civilised society, the administration of government, and being part of political life (in the widest sense - the Greek word for their city states is polis, from which we derive our own words politics and police. Being a member of society in this sense was the highest form of human activity. Jupiter also symbolises your patron or sponsor. The person who helps you move on in your career.

Lastly Mercury symbolises the rational mind, communication, reasoning, the thing which makes humans different from animals (arguably). Mercury also has some duality to it, being a Hermaphrodite and also being able to be diurnal or nocturnal depending on circumstances. In the whole sign house system, which the Hellenistic Astrologers used for topical issues, the first house was the whole of the Ascending sign, part of which lay below the horizon in night but part of which had ascended into the light. The first symbolises the native, in Natal Astrology, body, mind and soul.

From the Ascendant to the Descendant going in the order of signs, is the lunar hemisphere. The realm of night, if instinct, of fortune and luck. A realm which it is difficult to control. From the Ascendant to the Descendant against the order of signs, is the realm of daylight, of reasoning and being a member of society.

From that system, we have developed our modern conception of houses but as you will see the essence of those is still heavily dependent on the original system.
 

GoldenPhi

thanks Minderwiz!! So cadent houses are places of "slow activity"? "Nothing much happens"?
The sign would make a difference one assumes