Defensiveness

[All RWS] I would have to go with Page of Swords and 9 of Wands. The Page is looking out for anyone attacking him. A character trait or 'that kinda guy'. The 9? Well just look at that pallasade behind him. He is no stranger to holding a position to the death!

8 of Swords is tempting but the emphasis here is on vulnerability. 7 of Wands is tempting too, but defending here is an active though temporary condition. I see it as relating to someone defending a position coming under attack rather than someone who puts up defences as a life position.

Dulcimer said:

[All RWS] 7 of Wands is tempting too, but defending here is an active though temporary condition. I see it as relating to someone defending a position coming under attack rather than someone who puts up defences as a life position.

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But 9/Wands isn't a "life's position" either. Often the card signifies a last stand before the battle is over and won. That wounded soldier there has thoughts about surrendering, giving up. Why hang on yet again?

The card urges him to keep up the defenses and not give in--but only because he's almost there. He's almost won. This hardly seems like a "lifetime" defense.

Contrariwise, the 7/wands may be a man under attack, but there is no time limit on his defense of his position. He may well defend it for a lifetime or to the death. There is no indication in the card's usual interpetation that this defense is temporary...unlike 9/Wands which, as with all nines, indictes that something is nearing completion, almost over.

Thanks everyone .. i appreciate the suggestions & feedback .. as always enlightening!!

However, after much consideration, i've decided to assign this concept to the 9 Cups reversed.

This is because to my way of thinking the suit of swords deals with conflict, in the sense that generally some "external factor" has come into play & otherwise is the root cause.

Whereas & as i indicated, i was thinking more in terms of defensiveness in relation to how someone was feeling & otherwise reacting .. whether warranted or not. So i just "felt" that this should be attributed to the suit of Cups, given that this suit focuses on feelings & emotions, which i see as primarily .. & for the most part being: an "inner response".

What do you all think??

Knight Cups?

jenessa said:

Whereas & as i indicated, i was thinking more in terms of defensiveness in relation to how someone was feeling & otherwise reacting .. whether warranted or not. So i just "felt" that this should be attributed to the suit of Cups, given that this suit focuses on feelings & emotions, which i see as primarily being an "inner response".

What do you all think??

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Tricky. On the one hand, common tarot wisdom says that what your instincts tell you is right is right.

On the other hand...if we can assign whatever we feel/think to whatever card we please...why bother discussing them and their meanings?

9/Cups is the wish card. You get what you wish, you have friends and family around you, an abundance of feeling and good will. This makes the reversed 9/Cups a card of famine, of losing rather than gaining you wishes, of being bereft of family, friends, affection.

This hardly seems to mean "Defense" in any sense.

I think the problem is that you didn't specify exactly what you wanted "defense" wise. What, exactly, is the situation you are thinking about?

Wands (as in 7/9) = "I am passionate about this and will defend it!" (i.e, a philosophy, a religion, a person we admire, an idea....)

Pents = "It's MINE, you can't have it!"

Swords = "I've a clever counter argument, and can defend my thinking and reasoning...."

What are YOU talking about? Just because the defense happened in a relationship doesn't mean it has to do with romantic feelings. I can feel that my lover is attacking my intelligence and defend it sword-wise. I can feel my lover is attacking my ideas, spirituality, philosophy, and defend it wands-wise. I can feel their attacking what I hold dear and value--and defend it pents-wise.

Under what circumstances, would I feel they were attack me "cups-wise" and defend it with pure emotion? Rather than passion (wands), intellect (swords), or physically (pents)?

Please offer a specific example. It will help.

Currently, the most "defensive" cups I can imagine are the courts:
Knight/Cups: who will defend the one he loves to the death or, reversed, defend his own selfish desires to the death.

Queen/Cups: Reversed. Upright she is a giver, but turn her over and she will defend herself and her emotions in ways that are truely scary. She will use emotional manipulation, blackmail, etc. to defend her desires, wants and needs.

King/Cups: rather like the Godfather. This is the daddy who will make your life hell if you hurt his little girl's feelings. VERY protective of his family and friends--and shows no mercy to those who hurt them.

Hmmn .. Thirteen you have give me a lot to ponder .. which is something i've been doing alot of lately, given that i am in the process of refining my card meanings. No easy task, given that i've been "studying" tarot for about 3 years and have noted "several schools of thot" on the subject. So its not so much that i'm randomly assigning meaning to the cards, but more a question of attempting to "incorporate" the insight i've gained into some kind of SYSTEM i feel comfortable working with. That being said, something that also prompted me to re-evaluate my take on tarot, was my desire to be on the "same page" so to speak, as the vast majority of readers.

However, try as i might, i think a lil differently where some of the attributes are concerned. For instance i see the suits a lil differently than most, in that i view Wands as the suit that REFLECTS our purpose/ideas & ideals (<<which are governed by our intellect) BY showing movement & activity in our affairs in relation to our objectives & intensions. So i don't think of Wands so much as passion, but rather i think the emphasis of this suit is more on willpower .. or rather should i say, a willful/purposeful intent .. which for me translates as "reason".

So i tend to discern passion from reason. However, as passion inspires & can therefore become a driving force with regard to our aspirations, i view the ACE of Wands as a spark of energy for some new passion. << & i THANK YOU Thirteen for that particular insight.

Next, i view the suit of Cups as reflecting our relationships, and as such for me this is the suit that concerns itself with our feelings/(passions*) & emotions. Altho i ALSO see Cups as a bit of a continuance of the suit of wands, in that depending on the context/reading, it may show us the patterns AND relationships connected to our objectives & intensions. <<(note: as i've indicated there are different schools of thot on how to INTERPRET the cards, and this last applies in the sense that cups can be read as an extension of the suit of wands, as they may show us how things are developing in terms of patterns/relationships. *VIP: This way of reading is only used IF Wands appear & are otherwise significant in a reading).

For me Swords = the presence or absence of CONFLICT. The exception being the Ace which is among other things, a card of mental clarity, and as such the Ace is the only card in this suit that i think of in terms of intellect.

Coins reflect practicality, security & material concerns. This is the suit that concerns itself with that which is tangible. Further to which & when i 1st. began to read, rather than using positions in a spread to look for the progression/outcome of a reading, i was taught to use the suit of coins to try & gage whether the situation the cards suggested was practical or would be fruitful, etc.

So YES i have a bit of a different take on how to read tarot. But as developing ones' skill as a reader is for the most part trial & error, for me its not so much a question of following my instincts, as it is a learning process. For eg.: I have a hunch, or i've discovered a new way to read ... i try it .. & it either works for me or it doesn't.

As far as your comment/(QUOTE: on the other hand... if we can assign whatever we feel/think to whatever card we please...why bother discussing them and their meanings?) ... i think that all discussion is enlightening!! For me tarot is an ongoing learning process, and thru trial & error, not to mention the wisdom of others, i will no doubt develop my approach to tarot with time. Tho in my defense/(t'-hee) & on the subject of card meanings, i 'd like to point-out that any # of people who post on the forum, describe their experience with the cards in terms of how they "feel" about a card & subsequently assign a meaning to it that is anything but conventional. So as i've oft read courtesty of this site .. indeed there appears to be as many ways to read, as readers.

THIRTEEN, i'm going to close for tonite .. but will post tomorrow, given that i have not answered any of the questions you raised. However, i thot i'd address your post to some extent tonite & otherwise provide a lil info. as to where i'm coming from. Mostly I thot it would facilitate any further discussion, IF i began by pointing-out that i don't attribute "intelllect" as being the predominant quality in the suit of swords.

Thirteen said:

... the 7/wands may be a man under attack, but there is no time limit on his defense of his position. He may well defend it for a lifetime or to the death. There is no indication in the card's usual interpetation that this defense is temporary...unlike 9/Wands which, as with all nines, indictes that something is nearing completion, almost over.

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Good point well made.

Good a.m. THIRTEEN .. & aside from my last post re: providing a lil background as to how i read, i will attempt to answer the ?'s you raised. But before i do i just want to take a moment to thank you for all that you contribute to this forum ... you are a constant source of valuable info. .. much appreciated.

Now as far as what i was looking for >> as i was NOT thinking about a situation, when i raised the question of defensiveness i was thinking in generalities .. or rather should i say, i was thinking in terms of "defensiveness" as being a general concept. So altho i chose to assign 9 Cups (r) to cover this concept, my decision was based on the notion that AS this type of defensiveness was the RESULT of the persons/Q's tendancy to become defensive whether warranted or not, this could indeed be likened to a "life positon" (<< as Dulcimer pointed-out), in the sense that employing this tactic was more of an inherent reaction. So as what i'd been alluding to is more of an internal response & otherwise based on emotion, i felt it was appropriate to assign it to the suit of Cups. Altho i might add, i'd been struggling with this decision, as i could easily see this as being a concept that could apply to the Courts, in that an "inherent response" is quite literally a personality "trait". (<< Further to which, i appreciated 13's post/reply in this regard, as i'd been wondering about the courts).

However, after much consideration, as i was thinking in terms of defensiveness more in the sense that this could be considered to be a TACTIC .. (altho perhaps not a conscious one .. a tactic nonetheless) AND as i am for the most part happy with my arrangement re: the courts, i decided to relegate this to the suit of Cups.

Further to which & as i'd wanted to clarify & otherwise point-out, this type of defensiveness does not originate from any type of attack. So there is an absense of conflict, which eliminates the suit of swords as a possibility for me, given the school of thot i've chosen to adopt in this regard.

I also ruled-out the suit of wands, given that this form of defensiveness IS a reaction & thus not always a form of intellect. As i've indicated in my last post, for me the suit of wands concerns itself with intellect in the sense of a purposeful/willful intent. Further to which, i also took into account the fundamental DIFFERENCE between: "having a reason"/(our sense of reason/intellect) AND a "reaction"/(response). Allow me to clarify: altho our responses may be driven by our sense of intellect, it must be remembered that a response is just that .. it is a reaction to something which has gone before it/(caused it & otherwise already occurred). Whereas an intention does NOT require something to trigger it. So as a distinction can @ times be made between a reaction & an intention, i ruled out wands.

To continue, this process of elimination lead me to the most obvious choice, that being Cups, which is the suit of emotion. So as far as CONTEXT, what i'm getting at is that this form of defensiveness is essentially a reaction, in that it does NOT have to be merited, and as such is an emotionally DRIVEN response.

So altho i believe that responses can be seen in all the suits, as my initial inquiry was generalized in that my question did not stem from, nor could it be characterized in terms of a situation/relationship given that this form of defensiveness is pure emotion, i decided in favour of the suit of Cups.

I just kinda thot to myself - PURE EMOTION .. totally LACKING in foundation = no basis what so ever for this type of reaction, given that my question had no real context & as such this type of defensiveness can present itself as a TACTIC that IS employed. Or in otherwords & to clarify: i was not thinking about a situation .. so there was no real context to my question. However, this type of defensiveness does not require a basis to precipitate the way it manifests. << Hmmn, i began to think more in terms of its being a tactic .. which i might add is why i decided to assign if to the minor arcana.

Now what do you think? IF you/anyone sees anything they think i've totally missed the mark on ... PLEASE bring this to my attention. I am deeply indebted to all @ AT, as this site offers such a dialogue. Tho it should be noted that i do have a somewhat different approach to reading, given that my early studies were based on any # of books/schools of thot & as such alot of what i'm working thru is rhetoric. << Which incidentally is WHY it is so nice to have a forum to discuss the cards & their meanings ... & otherwise why i "bother" given that @ times i view reading a lil differently that most @ AT.

Further to which, i don't have a "wish card". To me is seems too redundant, given the card of success;contentment;abundance & the majors that address this concept. << Allow me to clarify: i think of tarot in terms of its being a system where various card meanings may be similar, albeit subtle differences in application/(areas of life in which the concept covered by the card would manifest). So i think this kind of thing, as well as the idea of reinforcing cards is part of working with "good" system of card meanings. However as tarot cards are intended to describe a whole array of potential life experiences, i am trying to avoid any unnecessary redundancy whilst refining my notes. Not to mention that i am also trying to expand my understanding of key concepts & possible APPLICATIONS. << Another reason why i enjoy any discussion of card meaning!!

Also i might add in my defense, if you can appreciate that when i 1st. began exploring tarot, i was overwhelmed by the many discrepancies re: card meaning. So i focused on the similarities .. whenever i came across a card meaning where there appeared to be either a plausible school of thot on the subject, or one which appeared to be widely accepted >> that became noteworthy & otherwise i adopted this. Tho i'm still refining & adjusting/changing the odd thing, not to mention that i've the odd concept that i consider to be outstanding. So as the cards are intended to cover all life's experience, as i've not managed to assign cards to cover all such concepts .. i'll be venturing into the forum from time to time in an effort to uncover this.

PS: I apologize for the length & i'll leave it at that for the time being, tho I will have to post a new thread to inquire into the possibilities re: 7 Cups (r) as this is the one spot i have vacant re: the system of card meanings that i am developing. Mind you i will also have to cross-check my outstanding concepts in order to tackle this & otherwise attempt to complete this task. However, as i feel that there is room for a lil variation amongst readers .. not to mention that i think that in order to develop as a reader one has to connect with the cards, as i'm not psychic (or drat!), i will have to pursue this aim in a more scholarly fashion .. so please bear with me.


PPS: Also just so you know, i agree with THIRTEEN & likewise view 9's *as indicating that something is nearing completion, almost over. So for your info., as i don't have a wish card, the 9 of Cups upright position represents "resolution" to me & the 10 of Cups upright takes this one step further & represents contentment.

When I think 'defensive' looking at my cards,I also feel the 4 of pentacles. The man holding the pentacles in his hands and under his feet will use them to block every move. I drew that card alot when my ex and I were breaking up. MY LORD he was a defensive cranky "you-know-what". Perfect meaning for him at the time.

blind1 said:

When I think 'defensive' looking at my cards,I also feel the 4 of pentacles. The man holding the pentacles in his hands and under his feet will use them to block every move. I drew that card alot when my ex and I were breaking up. MY LORD he was a defensive cranky "you-know-what". Perfect meaning for him at the time.

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4 of Pentacles = anal retentive? For sure!

jenessa said:

I'm currently refining my card meanings and have yet to assign a card to cover the concept of defensiveness. I'm thinking in terms of someone who REACTS by putting up there defenses, whether warranted or not.

So i'm not thinking in terms of the need to defend your position, but rather i'm trying to apply this concept to someone who is merely defensive & otherwise unable to get to the heart of the matter/core of a situation, given their tendancy to employ this tactic.

Any thots on what card(s) could suggest defensiveness in this sense?

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For me the card that talks of Defenciveness is the the 9 of Wands just look at the man clutching the wand and looking over his shoulder as if waiting for another attack