Defensiveness

koulla said:

For me the card that talks of Defenciveness is the the 9 of Wands just look at the man clutching the wand and looking over his shoulder as if waiting for another attack

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yes but the way i read the question, was that this sort of person is defensive by nature and self protective in not always the best way and not from experience or anything

its like a defensive personality rather than a defensive action for other reasons

thats why i said the 4 of coins

Hey, Jenessa,

I'm very glad if I've been of any help.

Now what do you think? IF you/anyone sees anything they think i've totally missed the mark on ... PLEASE bring this to my attention.

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Hmmm. Okay, but only because you requested it

jenessa said:

Further to which & as i'd wanted to clarify & otherwise point-out, this type of defensiveness does not originate from any type of attack. So there is an absense of conflict, which eliminates the suit of swords

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I was with you up to this point. You're right that a person can get defensive toward another when the other was not attacking. BUT the defensive person is under the impression that they've been attacked. That they must defend something.

Which means there IS conflict. It may only be a conflict in their mind, but it's there. And swords, which to me at least, is all about communications and how we think as well as conflict, means that even if there is no OUTWARD conflict, there is conflict inside--in our heads.

In which case, Swords would be very apt indeed.

I also ruled-out the suit of wands, given that this form of defensiveness is a reaction & thus not always a form of intellect. As i've indicated in my last post, for me the suit of wands concerns itself with intellect in the sense of a purposeful/willful intent. So as a distinction can be made between a reaction & an intention, i ruled out wands.

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You say, "defensivness is a reaction and theus not always a form of intellect." "Not always" indicates that it CAN be. So why rule out Wands?

I'm also a little confused by your distinctions. Traditionally in Tarot, Swords stands for the element of Air, and the qualities of intellect/communication/the mind/conflict, while Wands stand for the element of Fire, and the qualities of ambition, passion, ideals, philosophy, spirituality.

Now there are people who believe the opposite. Swords = Fire, etc. and Wands = Air, etc.

But you seem to have relegated the intellectual elements to Wands without the conflict...which is the ONLY quality you've given to Swords. Where is passion (i.e., LUST--not Love which is cups), where are high ideals that people will fight and die for? Religion that they will martyr themselves for? Where is the hot temper that Wands so often signify? Or the irresistable charisma that Wand folk so often have to charm, seduce, lead into battle?

They're not in Wands...but they're not in Swords either. Where are they? Surely not in the sensitive, compassionate, understanding and forgiving suit of cups!

I also can't understand how wands can ALWAYS be intent. 7/Wands is so very clearly reactive and not intent. It would not happen if the person wasn't under attack.

given that this form of defensiveness is pure emotion, i decided in favour of the suit of Cups.

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I think you're limiting both suits and emotions. Take 9/Swords which indicates mental anguish--that is emotional as well as mental, though mental is the cause behind it (going round and round in one's head). And how about 6/Wands with the man riding in triumphant--there must be feelings there of pride and achievement, as well as emotions of adoration and awe from the applauding audience. And the 5/Pents with the poor folk outside the church. Surely there's emotions there, of loss, of dispair.

Other cards have emotions. They are just not about certain emotions. In particular, the gentle or jealous emotions, like love, affection, kindness, compassion OR contrary wise, the moody-watery emotions like envy and depression, OR instinct-wise, creativity, psychic abilities.

And granted, That is my bias take on cups.

I just kinda thot to myself - PURE EMOTION .. totally LACKING in foundation = no basis what so ever for this type of reaction

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Almost never happens. Not in my experience. I know one crazy woman. She explodes defensively for no apparent reason (husband brought home the wrong kind of olive oil--explosion!). But there is a reason, a very deep one, behind her defensive reactions. She doubts herself. And she is convinced that other people share such doubts about her; she is absolutely sure she's going to be criticized--as she was when she was a child and her father yelled at her and berated her constantly.

So even though no attack is intended or launched by the other person, she is sure that there is going to be an attack. She launches a pre-emptive strike, if you will.

In fact, there is only one example of pure emotional defensiveness that I can think of, and yes, it would be cups. That is hormonal imbalance (male or female). The person reacts because their hormones are out of wack. And in such cases, they may even be able to intellectually see and know that they're reacting strangely to no provocation at all.

I have a concrete example of this. Woman on birth control pills which were too strong for her. She broke down defensively (in tears) because her husband kissed her. She was able to say, even as she was crying, however, "This is crazy, you did nothing...I know this...."

However as tarot cards are intended to describe a whole array of potential life experiences, i am trying to avoid any unnecessary redundancy whilst refining my notes.

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Again, in my experience, not possible. Cards sometimes need to be redundant. Why? Because in a spread you might have a card for success in the past--now that card is used. But what if you're going to have success in the future as well? If there's no redundancy...how can the cards tell you that? The success card is being used in another part of the spread.

I'm not saying that there is no differences between cards, merely that it's unwise to spilt too many hairs. Sometimes redundancy is useful and good.

if you can appreciate that when i 1st. began exploring tarot, i was overwhelmed by the many discrepancies re: card meaning.

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I very much can appreciate this. Everyone on this forum can. We all go through it in the beginning. It's that scary point where we get a bit overwhelmed. Thankfully, it doesn't last long.

as i don't have a wish card, the 9 of Cups upright position represents "resolution" to me & the 10 of Cups upright takes this one step further & represents contentment.

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This is all well and good, but how does reversing that card = defensivness?

Might Defensiveness be an emotion?

If so, I nominate the 4 of Cups (RWS). That figure simply exudes passive-aggressive defensiveness. And without apparent need.

edited

Hmmm- this is a very informative and enlightening thread! I'm going to have to make some notes from this in my journal, as well!

I've seen the Four of Pentacles as being defensive, too- sometimes in a necessary way. I recently did a reading for someone who is always being exploited by members of her family, who continuously take advantage of her.

(For example- she makes cards, and they expect her to do these for their weddings, birthdays, etc.etc. either at a great discount... or for nothing!)

She has had this card come up in readings I've done for her, and I felt it was trying to show her that she NEEDS to be defensive- to protect not just herself materially, but her sense of self-worth that goes with it.

Elnor

Hmmn, where to begin? .. For starters i'd like to mention that i fine-tuned my last post & otherwise edited & re-arranged some of my points for greater clarity.

Next i'd like to thank everyone for responding.
Noteably: Star-lover who was right on target >> QUOTE:the way i read the question, was that this sort of person is defensive by nature ... its like a defensive personality rather than a defensive action.

Also: Psychebleu Citizen who understood that the nature of my inquiry was such, that defensiveness in this sense can be likened to a habitual stance.

& Blind1 for your insight re: 4 Coins where the man is holding the pentacles in his hands and under his feet, & could use them to block every move. Tho this observation may not apply to defensiveness in the sense i'd meant, it is an astute observation & as such i will no doubt incorporate this into my system @ some pt.

This brings me to Thirteen who has given me a great deal to think about!!

Part of my problem may be that when i 1st. started studying tarot, i began by reading a book written in 1947 & which indicated that an understanding of Qabalah was needed for tarot study. Now i don't pretend to know anything about Qabalah except of course for what i read @ that time in relation to tarot practice.

Thing is, i got kinda hung-up on the supposed correspondences between Qabalah & Tarot, and as my studies continued i tryed to incorporate this along with what i was learning, into some kind of workable system.

So thank you for the clarification re: traditonal view re: suits/elements & their qualities. If you can appreciate that i'd been thinking more in terms of how the 4 Worlds correspond to the 4 Suits, & as such the way i understood this, was that the suit of wands was the World of Pure IDEAS. Not to mention that apparently the suit of wands implies a volition, and as such is the plane of root-notions & intent. So given this understanding, i've just always attributed intellect to Wands.

As i say Thirteen, you have given me a great deal to think about, and i will do so & get back to you from time to time. It will however, take me awhile to work thru alot of this. Many thanx tho, because your feedback is exactly what i was looking for.

However, to respond in part .. i'd like to mention that you were indeed right about this type of defensiveness being a reaction TO internal conflict. <<Hmmn, a flaw in my thinking to some extent .. thanx for pointing this out!

I'm going to have to "post this now" as i don't know how to navigate the forum all that well & what i really need to do is copy & paste your responce so that i can systematically reply. My apologizes for being so abrupt, but i will pick up from where i've left off once i've collected my/(your)/t'hee thots.

To continue where i left off responding .. YES you were right about this type of defensiveness being a reaction TO internal conflict. However now that i've pondered this for a bit, i don't see this so much as a flaw in my thinking, but rather more a question of where the emphasis lies re: this concept/(type of defensiveness). Pardon me if i haven't stated that very well, but what i'm getting at is that this type of defensiveness IS a purely emotional REACTION, and as such this translates as an effect. Or in otherwords & as i tend to think of tarot in terms of cause & effect, in this instance i think the fact that this concept/(defensiveness) MANIFESTS as a purely emotional reaction takes precedent. So yes the cause is internal conflict, however, defensiveness is NOT the cause, it IS the effect. (<< feel free to correct me IF i'm wrong, cuz i admit to being in a lil over my head where all this is concerned).

Also just so you know, i've always seen the suit of swords as encompassing both internal & outward Conflict. & As far as traditional tarot qualities & the suits, i'd just like to point-out that as we communicate both our feelings & thoughts, communication is the product/effect/(end result) of our intellect. Tho i suppose it depends on how you view communication .. i'd tend to think that most communication originates from our intellect, altho non-verbal forms of communication might not apply. Whatever, what is known is that communication is a byproduct/effect, NOT a cause. Or in otherwords, communication originates in the brain, and then our thots send signals which ultimately result in communication. Further to which, altho i have card meanings that relate to communication & of course i see the pages as messengers, i've never thot of this in terms of suit correspondences. << Hmmn, i'll have to ponder this awhile longer.

You have indicated that i appear to be limiting both suits & emotions. Perhaps, but I tend to focus my card meanings on EITHER the root cause OR the effect. << & I don't FIND this limiting, given that i use the other cards to look for supporting detail & otherwise gain more insight into whatever area the cards are suggesting.

I also think perhaps you misunderstood me, because i agree with you that a certain amount of redundancy is a good thing .. indeed as i indicated i can see the value of reinforcing cards.

Your Quote>> "Other cards have emotions. They are just not about certain emotions". My reply: i'm not sure yet .. I need to ponder this some more.

So far the system of meanings i'm developing is exhaustive re: possible applications of the concept represented by the card. So yes, as i gain insight i see "new" applications/(ways a card can be read). However, i feel that whats important when it comes to assigning meaning to the cards, is for each card to cover a specific concept, albeit with any # of possible applications & subtle nuances. So whenever i assign meaning to a card, i tend to FOCUS on the concept, which i see in terms of being either a cause or an effect.

Your Quote>> "I also can't understand how wands can ALWAYS be intent. 7/Wands is so very clearly reactive and not intent". My reply: well for starters, wands are not JUST intent, they also show movement & activity in relation to the querents objectives & intentions. So they may show something that is reactive in this respect.

However, it should be noted that a reaction doesn't always have to be a form of intellect, ie. purely emotional reaction. So as I said, I can see reactions & responses in ALL the suits.

To continue explaining: There is a fundamental difference between intentions & reactions. For starters a reaction is a RESPONSE to something which has gone before it/(already occurred). So a reaction is a byproduct .. thus it can be termed an EFFECT.

An intention, however, is nothing unless acted upon. Furthermore an intention/(purpose) ORIGINATES from our sense of reason/intellect. << [I point this out, because i fail to see how anyone can seperate intent from intellect, hence my stance re: wands being the suit of intellect]. So for me Wands have always been the suit of: intellect/reason/intent/purpose/IDEALS & ideas. However, that being said, the suit of wands is not always reactive!!, THO it can be.

Now this is where it gets tricky .. alas the World of PURE Ideas .. in that the qualities of the suit of wands are NOTHING unless acted upon. So altho Wands MAY be reactive, in the sense that these cards can show movement & activity in the querents affairs in relation/RESPONSE to the clients *objectives & intensions*, this is not always the case. & As such its important to remember that the FOCUS of this suit is on *intent & accordingly the Qabalah indicates that the suit of wands IMPLIES a *volition. << [Now just allow me to say, that i don't really understand this, but i am trying to work my with thru this, hence i write].

Next to back-track to address further the issues you raised .. i see where you noted: "You say, "defensiveness is a reaction and thus not ALWAYS a form of intellect." "Not always" indicates that it CAN be. So why rule out Wands? My reply: as i've tryed to explain in the preceeding i feel the focus of this concept/(defensiveness), concerns its being a "purely emotional" reaction, and as such it is not reactive in relation to the querents conscious intensions or objectives, hence my decision to rule out wands. Or in otherwords, and in this instance*, as this type of reaction is not a form of intellect/(the querents sense of reason), i ruled it out..

Thirteen, you mentioned -- mental anguish -- and this is a perfect example of how concepts can over-lap ie. a mental conflict. However, as i see this as primarily being a form of internal conflict, i've assigned it to 9 Swords.

Hmmn, lets see .. where is the passion .. where are the high ideals >> well for me both of these types of things come across in the Courts. For instance the King of Wands is an idealist .. & the Knight of Cups can be consumed with passion.

& I'm gonna leave it @ that for the time being. I have no idea how to work "off-line" & @ one pt. i lost my computer connection. So i think i will call it a day. But just so you know, i will get back to you re: my logic re: assigning defensiveness as the reversal for resolution re: The 9 of Cups.

Janessa,

When we started, I mentioned how tricky your question was about the 9/Cups. I said that Tarot wisdom says follow your instincts...but if we assign any meaning we please to the cards, it's difficult to discuss them.

You didn't seem to believe I was right about that. But what I see happening here is EXACTLY what I was talking about.

So far the system of meanings i'm developing is exhaustive re: possible applications of the concept represented by the card.

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You asked us what we thought a good card about defensiveness would be. Though there were different answers, most of us would AGREE that 9/Wands is a defensive card (to give just one example--we'd probably agree on 7/Wands, and a few others). But few of us would agree that 9/Cups, reversed or otherwise, is a defensive card.

Yet you INSIST that it is the card you want. Do you begin to see? You have created your system. And you've got such a strong idea about that system, that we might as well be discussing things in two different languages. It makes no sense at all to me how a card (9/Wands) so powerfully about defense can be rejected by you because it's not emotional enough. And you can't understand why we keep giving you just about every suit but cups for an answer to this question.

It's like you're saying: "I created a mathematical system where 2 + 2 = 5. What does 4 + 4 = ? And we say, "8" and you say, "No, I think it equals 10..." We continue to say, "8" you continue to say "10" and there's no getting to common ground.

We don't know your system. And you, invested in that system, don't feel we're hitting the mark with our systems.

This is what I meant about having trouble discussing tarot cards when a person has a gut feeling about a card and wants to trust it. Or, likewise, when they have a system that they've worked out that others have not shared.

You aren't wrong about the 9/Cups, not if that card works for you...but unless you give me a concrete example of what you mean by purely emotional, non-reactive defensiveness in a real life situation, and unless you then explain very well what 9/cups means in a way I agree, and THEN explain the reversal so I can see why it should be read as defensiveness....

Well, you're not going to change my mind that 4 + 4 = 10...and I don't even want to try and change your gut instinct. You're not wrong. But I wonder why you asked us which card we thought would indicate this sort of thing, as you seem to have made up your mind quite strongly. When it comes down to that gut instinct--and systems created over a period of time that you trust and believe in, it's easier to exchange dialogue on how we each feel about the suits and cards in general, rather than in specific.

Hi there Thirteen & just so you know, i never meant to imply that i don't feel you all @ AT were not hitting the mark with your systems. I actually view AT as a valuable resource re: info. relating to tarot.

You also mentioned something about wondering WHY i had asked AT members which card they thought would indicate this sort of thing, as i seemed to have made up my mind quite strongly. << But on the contrary, i had not made up my mind when i first put forth my inquiry. I was actually in the process of mulling this over & thot i'd post to see what i'd get in the way of feedback, in case i was missing something obvious.

However, this type of defensiveness appears to be uncommon ... leastways, i'd never seen any reference to it, hence my inquiry. So it wasn't so much a question of my being ignorant of a concept which is widely recognized in tarot, but rather as you yourself pointed-out, this sort of reaction rarely occurs.

Furthermore & as you'll recall, i was inquiring into a very specific form of defensiveness, albeit i was approaching this as a general concept. I did however learn alot from everyone's feedback, not to mention that you have given me alot to ponder further. So i have found this thread to be of value & want to thank everyone for their assisance/REGARDS

PS: I'm curious if anyone is aware of any other tactics which people unconsciously employ. (<< Perhaps this should be a new thread?)