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Petit Oracles de les dames, c. 1807

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Philippe  Philippe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
France seems to be expressed by 61 "Le préfat" ("préfet" of Paris ?), which is commented with "ils surpassera nos esperances".

I'm not sure, if Paris had a Préfet in 1790, I saw a note, that Napoleon invented this administrative function (possibly in 1800 ?).
Possibly it was used for the chief of the police in Paris?



It's not préfat but prélat = prelate in english, high-ranking clergyman
Top   #51
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The prelate wears the blue cordon of the "Ordre du Saint-Esprit", so it's undoubtedly before 1791. It could be the Cardinal de Rohan or Loménie de Brienne. I don't understand to what refer "il surpassera nos espérances"
Top   #52
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The card 66 is the most interesting and gives the key of the deck I think
It's a map of the battles during the 6th war between Russia and Turkey (1768-1774)
Chotczim = Khotin 1769
Kaminice = Kamenets podol'sk 1769
Iessi = Jassy 1769
Bender = Bender 1770
The appearance of this distant and rather neglected conflict in a french deck reveals the man and the family for whom the deck was created, as the only ones able to understand this card 66.
I'll give the name of this man in a next post if no one finds it. A clue : he's represented by a card and it's not Louis XVI.
Top   #53
Huck  Huck is offline
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Quote:
It's not préfat but prélat = prelate in english, high-ranking clergyman
I've difficulties with the handwriting, I cannot read all. If you think, that it is a prelate ...

Does it make sense to rank a simple prélat between the row 56-65 Destine, Hercules, Liberte, Soliman (Osman ruler), Cesar, Prelat, Semiramis, Jason, Achill, Ulysses? Possibly in relation to one of the pre-1790-wars near Moldavia?

Generally it would helpful, if somebody makes a list with all written notes for all figures presented on the cards. I would do it myself, but my French is not so good and not reliable ...

Quote:
The prelate wears the blue cordon of the "Ordre du Saint-Esprit", so it's undoubtedly before 1791. It could be the Cardinal de Rohan or Loménie de Brienne. I don't understand to what refer "il surpassera nos espérances"


Quote:
Louis René Édouard de Rohan known as Cardinal de Rohan (25 September 1734 – 16 February 1803), prince de Rohan-Guéméné, was a French bishop of Strasbourg, politician, cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church, and cadet of the Rohan family (which traced its origin to the kings of Brittany). His parents were Hercule Mériadec, Prince of Guéméné and Louise Gabrielle Julie de Rohan. He was born in Paris.
Rohan had such a decoration (see picture). He even looks similar to the card. And he was bishop in Strassbourg, which was a rather innovative location for playing cards. Rohan makes sense, my congratulation.
It's possible, that he made the deck for himself.

from Wiki ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_de_Rohan
Quote:
Louis de Rohan was a member of the palace cabal opposed to the Austrian alliance. This party was headed by the Duc d'Aiguillon who, in 1771, sent Rohan on a special embassy to find out what was being done in Vienna with regard to the partition of Poland. Rohan arrived at Vienna in January 1772, and made a great spectacle of himself with his lavish entertainments. Empress Maria Theresa was hostile to his intrigues; not only did he attempt to thwart her alliance with France, but as a vicar of the Church, he made little secret of his venal lifestyle.[1]
On the death of Louis XV in 1774, Rohan was recalled from Vienna, and coldly received in Paris; ...
"lavish entertainments" sounds, as if he might have had done something with cards.

Quote:
The card 66 is the most interesting and gives the key of the deck I think
It's a map of the battles during the 6th war between Russia and Turkey (1768-1774)
Chotczim = Khotin 1769
Kaminice = Kamenets podol'sk 1769
Iessi = Jassy 1769
Bender = Bender 1770
The appearance of this distant and rather neglected conflict in a french deck reveals the man and the family for whom the deck was created, as the only ones able to understand this card 66.
I'll give the name of this man in a next post if no one finds it. A clue : he's represented by a card and it's not Louis XVI.
Well, this earlier war runs parallel to Rohan's stay in Vienna. Possibly he even had some function in it? But it is not mentioned in the English biography.

**********

Following the key "59 Soliman" for the Ottoman ruler, Suleiman I (1520-1566) attacked Vienna and Austria in his early period, and Suleiman II (1687-1691) became a loser and died soon.
Louis XIV used in late 17th century the momentary weakness of Austria (Ottoman attack on Vienna in 1683) to annect Strasbourg for a long period.

There's a longer list of archbishops in Strasbourg of the Rohan family ...

Armand Gaston Maximilien de Rohan (1704-1749)
... cardinal in 1712

François-Armand de Rohan (1749-1756)
... cardinal in 1447

Charles-Louis-Constantin, prince de Rohan-Guéméné (1756-1779)
... cardinal in 1761

Louis René Édouard de Rohan-Guéméné (1779 - November 29, 1801, † 1803)
... cardinal in 1781

**********

There was a bankrupty in the family in 1781 and in 1785 the cardinal was involved in the necklace affair and became prisoner in the Bastille for some time.
But I don't see any involvement of Rohan in the wars on the Balkan. An involvement in Polish problems is mentioned.

There's a longer biography from 2006, but not online:
https://books.google.de/books?id=9KO...cLAcAQ6AEIJzAB

*********

Anyway, these were interesting suggestions, thanks.
Top   #54
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I would have thought Rohan, too, given also his interest in the occult. The biographies of Cagliostro mention him frequently as a guest of Rohan's in Strasbourg.

Approaching the problem from the other end, who would know about 1769 Khotin 1769 Kamenets podol'sk, 1769 Jassy, and 1770 Bender? Googling these names and dates, I only come up with Prince Alexander Golytsin (1789) and another Prince, for the Russians.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ne...201770&f=false

However this is a French deck. There, I see three people who would have known details about the Turkish war: Foreign Minister Choiseul, the early ambassador to Istanbul Charles Gravier, and his replacement The Comte de Saint-Priest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C...e_Saint-Priest). He was a liberal royalist who served as Minister of the Interior for Louis XVI from August 1790 until Jan. 1791.

Given your hints, Philippe, my guess would be Saint-Priest, and so a deck done in the second half of 1790. A puzzling thing to me is why these defeats suffered by an ally of the French would be commemorated on a card. Gravier had been against Turkey's involvement in war with the Russians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charle...e_de_Vergennes), and so might have had some satisfaction from Turkey's defeat in what followed. However he was Foreign Minister (before and after Choiseul), not in the deck, and he died in 1787.
Top   #55
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And the winner is : MikeH !!!!

François-Emmanuel Guignard de Saint-Priest that we can see on the third card, just after Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette. He was Secrétaire d'Etat à la Maison du Roi (1789-1790) renamed into Ministre de l'Intérieur (the first in France) in 1789-1791. The man wrote memoirs and he had no inclination for occult matters. For instance he despises Friedrich Wilhelm II for having fallen under the influence of Bischoffwerder. But he was very proud of his achievements during the russian-turkish war (a double-game policy, he has always been in favour of Russia). The deck may have been intended to entertain his wife (the german aristocrat Wilhelmine Constance von Ludolf) or his children.
Top   #56
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The fourth card could be Jean-Frédéric de la Tour du Pin Gouvernet born in Grenoble like Saint-Priest but it could also be Victor-François Maréchal de Broglie whom Saint-Priest had served and appreciated very much the brother Charles-François Comte de Broglie. Victor-François was secrétaire d'état à la guerre between the 11th and the 16th July 1789, three days before the nomination of Saint-Priest
Top   #57
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And the prelate in the card 61 could be Saint-Priest's uncle Pierre-Paul Guérin de Tencin, cardinal and archevêque de Lyon.
Top   #58
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You proposed an earlier date for the deck before cause of the map ... why do you think, that the later date has more probability to be correct?
Top   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
You proposed an earlier date for the deck before cause of the map ... why do you think, that the later date has more probability to be correct?
You misunderstood me :

The man figured in the 3rd card Guignard de Saint-Priest, Ministre de l'Intérieur of Louis XVI (first card) in 1789-1791, the first with this title in the history of France was directly involved in the battles figured in the 66th card as he was ambassador of Louis XV in Turkey in 1769-1770 (he relates these battles in his memoirs).

The deck goes back obviously to the late years of the monarchy (style, costums etc), but it's a diachronic deck
Top   #60




 

 


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