A very early magician

jmd

Huck, I agree with so much of what you present here. Certainly, your statement
  • If we assume, that these "games" are meant to appear as playing cards, they are nearly "Tarot", but iconographical not identical to the Tarot series. But if we accept 5x14-games and also games like Boiardo-poem and Sola-Busca and the Mantegna-Tarocchi as "Tarot-related", then we have to do it again with this objects
is not only a beautiful passage, but one which assists in opening various venues for further investigations.

The close rapport which some are finding between Chess depictions in its twists and turns in various directions, combined with the earlier work done with Mamluk decks, and yet other work with cathedral imagery, all leads to not only deeper understanding of some of the forces at work and inherently operating in Tarot, but of better understanding both the mindset and technological constraints and resourcefulness of our mediaeval forebears.

Again, such wonderful further paths to be explored - and so little time!
 

Major Tom

Re: about definitions

Huck said:

There is simply a combination of intellectual-iconographical concept with playing card - nobody actually is really interested how we do define Tarotcards, there is simply a phenomen and that's playing cards and there are historical artefacts and they are, what they are and not what we define them to be.

:laugh: I love the way you put this Huck.

I've certainly been interested in finding out what Tarot is and this wonderful thread and the image you shared have certainly entertained and enlightened me. Thank you.

What strikes me most forceably is how similar the creation of tarot decks is during the period when tarot was born and today.

"They are what they are and not what we define them to be."

*breaks into song* "Everything is still Everything...the only difference is how I see it."
 

Huck

The Rosselli inventory is interesting, cause 3 of the 4 mentioned games have a solution with 13 or 14 Elements. They could have been part of 5x14 or 5x13 decks, just playing the role of the trump suit with changed motifs.

12 Apostles: they were usually (contemporary) painted with Jesus, this would mean 13 figures.

7 planets + their borders (spheres): 7+7 = 14

7 virtues - 7 vices are not mentioned, but in contemporary painting and engraving they often appear together. In that case: 14 figures again.

During our studies in the big engraving dictionary (German + Flemish, autorbis detected it) in the library I met "12 Apostles" + Jesus variously. There was not only one, who engraved them. A common motif. 7 Virtues we found variously, the combination with Vices is seldom (we didn't found one in the dictionary, but there are some in the net). 7 Planets and 7 borders or spheres - they are there ... La Sphera is the famous example.
But the dictionary is too big - we didn't find the time to finish it, one needs a week for it. I've some Apostles here:

http://www.geocities.com/research_of_tarot/mapo01.html
http://www.geocities.com/research_of_tarot/mapo12.html

Another common iconographical program were "Heroes": 18 figures.

http://www.geocities.com/research_of_tarot/mhero1.html
http://www.geocities.com/research_of_tarot/mhero2.html
http://www.geocities.com/research_of_tarot/mhero3.html

Well, that's just a "Tarot" :) - somehow. When the Sola-Busca is a Tarot, then this is not very far off.
Well, it's not a Tarot, any evidence, that this had been a cardplay, is missing. But - if somebody would have gotten the idea, then it could be ...


I believe, that, if the Rosselli-material really had been "games, then they hadn't been successful games, just experiments. But that is "normal". In all evolutionary processes a lot of experiments happen, but not all become "successful". Finally a few things stay and are the "winner". In playing card development we know two winners: 52-cards-deck, 1st prize, Tarot deck, second prize.

But in 15th century .... it was not clear, which variation would be finally winner and which not.