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For Lee


Lee, I don't want to ignore your post. I did recognize that the power zones near the angles are more appropriate than the house area after the angle when I read Gauquin's research. This concept has also long been held by the Sidereal school of astrology, long before the Frenchman's research. The angles are strong. I have also attributed certain characteristics to each angle for interpretation purposes when that angle is contacted by a planet -- also when I progress a precessed solar return chart so that one angles moves ahead and contacts another angle. I've found that to be highly significant in predictive work to define events that will happen. But all of that is another subject or another thread. The Siderealists use an aspect that many mainstream astrologers do not -- the PARAN SQUARE. This aspect is formed when two planets each contact an adjacent angle (for example; Sun on the ASC, Mars on the IC where the angular separation is not 90 degrees but may be 107 degrees or something). The fact that both bodies are at an angle brings them into a "paran square." Think of those few references where an astrologer notes that one planet is rising over the ASC at the same time that another planet culminates. That is an example of two planets being angular during the daily rotation of the earth at the same time. It is a a powerful "aspect." You can check out a software program's rise-set-culminate-anti-culminate chart and look for two/more planets that will be at an angle at/near the same time. Even if those planets do not form a normal aspect or are not angular in your chart they will be strongly evident in your expression and life. Check it out. And please do not hesitate to jump into our playing here. Dave.
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No Aspects -- part three; methodology


In this post I will attempt to explain the METHODOLOGY of the "no aspects" interpretation that I provided earlier.
***
The methodology is called "Planetary Containment." The method has been most significantly deliniated in a 1980 book titled "Planets in Containment" by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard, published by Seek-It Publications, Birmingham, MI, USA. Prior to this book the French astrologer Valguine (who also did extensive research on solar returns -- my favorite subject) was the most significant advocate of this methodology. Prior to him were Raymond Merriman, Marc Edmond Jones, and Michael Meyers -- all of whom utilized partial approaches of this theory. Before all of them were the East Indians who utilized a modified version of Containments coupled with Yoga's (rules of interpretation).
***
The method is best summed up by quoting directly from the book itself. "The first planet of a containment group of three provides a basis and foundation for the three. The second planet is the pivot point of the group, the fulcrum and and balance point, and the third planet shows the directional thrust of the three." When assessing a three planet combination, the degree arc/distance between them is given no concern. They may be close (almost a conjunction) or widely separated by half/more of the chart. The East Indians did limit the separation to some 30 degrees or so.
***
A book example: Sun-Mercury-Saturn. These individuals demonstrate an ability for purposeful thinking and for mastering the art of communicating the importance of their ideas twoard the practical implementation of their goals. They can do this through sytematizing and organizing their ideas, and following them through to concretion. As they develop their skills, it will be to their advantage to focus and define what they wish to accomplish through the communication process, and realize that in expressing an idea it si the quality rather than the quantity which brings the best results.
***
When you read this you can see how Sun symbology launches ideas and communication (Mercury), and sets it into motion via a Saturnian method or imprint. Now M-Press did pick up on the fact that the neighboring planets were involved. The "key" is that the first planet provides a basis or foundation for the second planet to work with and that the second/middle planet is the primary expression or force yet it directs itself in a manner that the thrird planet provides. So, in this example Mercury symbols reflect the core/true values of the Sun and are guided into full expression by the values of Saturn.
*** When I do "No Aspects -- part four" I expect to lay out the interpretations for M-Press. Dave.
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Superb....!
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Containments versus Mid-Points


Since no one has brought this issue up, I will. Both Containments and Mid-Points have three-planet/point combinations. ARE THEY THE SAME?
*** No. Mid-Points occur when one planet has an equal arc (in degrees) to two other planets/points -- it therefore is midway between the other two planets. This condition is also applied to the 90 degree wheel methodology (actually a fourth harmoic) which results in squares and semi-squares being treated much like conjunctions and oppositions. In other words, for practical purposes it makes no difference if the middle planet is actually at the mid-point, opposite it (same thing), square or semi-square the mid-point. The interpetation is that the "middle" planet expresses itself through a synthesis of the other two planets.
*** This is different from a Containment combination. The middle planet expresses itself as itself BUT builds upon the prior (CW) planet's meaning and is directed through the following (CCW) planet's energy. Think about any group of planets relative to the ASC degree. Some planets are above the horizon at birth (in many cases, but not all). Let's assume that these "influence" the newly born person in some manner. A few minutes later, or an hour later, the Moon rises over the horizon -- Wow, something new has just been presented; a tidal surge of emotions, a sense that my needs have to be attended to, a feeling that others will respond to my efforts to attract their attention. After all of this is assimilated, along comes Mars. Now what, a sense that something should be done arises. Containments are like this in that they recognize an evolution or sequence of foundation, expressional development and then expressional outlet. This has a subtle interpretation that perhaps mid-points lack.
*** This is thrown out for discussion. I note that there are a large number of viewers to this thread that are not joining in. I invite you all to participate in any manner appropriate to your interests and experience. Dave.
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I actually have the Sandbach and Ballard book (though I have only really done occasional dips into it) - so when I said I had my doubts about forecasts without aspects, I was aware of the likely method Dave would use. That's also the reason why I didn't particularly see my post as a challenge per se - I knew it could be done. My 'doubts' are more related to whether it is a prime method or one that can provide supporting and additional information to a 'conventional' reading, or indeed be used in conjunction with other unconventional techniques - I suppose at the extreme, the issue is whether it is worth the trouble. I think Dave has done enough to show that the approach warrants some serious consideration, rather than simply being dismissed as a bit 'off the wall'.

Because of the number of combinations of runs, (the sub-title mentions 990) its difficult for the authors to do more than put in short paragraphs 'cookbook' style - so it was good to see Dave's interpretation as a practical exercise. The authors themselves say that the book cannot teach everything about containment - it's only designed to give the basic nature of the idea. So perhaps later on we can begin to look at the underpinning detail of the ideas.
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I think i have beed missing the midpoints too! i thought it was about finding an average point between the same planet in 2 charts (composits). Well...something new everyday...

Minderwiz wrote: "Because of the number of combinations of runs, (the sub-title mentions 990) its difficult for the authors to do more than put in short paragraphs 'cookbook' style"-----
This strengthens what I thought before, that the magic is in the reader. If one REALLY understood this principle well, and practiced, of course, then they would be able to not even use the "cookbook".
A little like reading three different cards together maybe? learning to make the connections?

what I'm curious about though, is weather this method gives something beyond a regular chart reading with planets and houses. I'm sure, like Dave mentioned, that this method is good for some things and not others?BUT, I have the feeling, that there is something general, but very important given with the containments. That "subtle" thing...

and then, I ask again, what is astology for? What is the best part it can give us? Prediction, or just understanding "what is"?
How is this method for synastry/composits? can it be applied?

I'm in dangerous zone....I can quit work and just do that all day!
:-)
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Comments, perhaps an answer or two


M-Press, you raise good questions. Like any subject, if you use it enough and apply it well then you will have less/little need for reference books. This is why I had mentioned at one point that I had thrown away hundreds of books that I hadn't looked at in perhaps 10 or 20 years.
Now, Planetary Containments are (for me) still a little new and I do refer to that book. It's not that one can't put together a three planet meaning -- it is that the expression of the middle planet has to build upon the CW planet (which rises first over the horizon) and then use the CCW planet to shape its expression. This is not just a three-planet blending as our mind thinks of it but is a progression of energies through stages of development.
NOTE that when I gave some interpretations that I indicated that one quality or another would have to be developed through experience (over time). Minderwiz's daughter (as it turned out) has not yet had enough life experience to fully develop some of these subtle expressions. This is why some of my statements may have been appropriate but not fully considered as "hits" by Minderwiz. Whether accurate or not, this interpretative approach recognizes that when doing a blind chart we cannot specifically state that such and such is true. Potential is just that. It comes in bits and pieces over time.
*** It is possible, and I have not yet fully explored this, that the distance between planets in a three-planet combination may symbolically represent the amount of relative time that it takes for the fully meaning to develop. THIS IS NOT IN ANY BOOK. For example, if the middle planet is 30 degrees from the prior planet and 60 degrees from the following (CCW) planet then the energies might take longer (later in adult hood) to learn to fully express themselves. If the other way around, the querent may express those qualities early in life but not have the foundation to give them substance or impact in their life. IF THIS IS TRUE in a general sense, then Planetary Containments can give us a sense of development over time as part of the pre-calculation quickie reading -- giving us a headsup in terms of what to expect in transit and secondary progression work, if we need to do that.
*** So, to answer another implied question, yes this system is subtle, appears to have a lot to offer the astrological community, and can be used as a primary method of chart interpretation if one wishes to do so. Dave.
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Dave-
I read your last post a couple of times, and will need to re-read a few more, and think about it for quite a while.
You stated some very interesting things there...a big "dessert for thought"!!!

This interested me especially: ". . . the distance between planets in a three-planet combination may symbolically represent the amount of relative time that it takes for the fully meaning to develop."

I now know what it takes to make such a "reading", alot of "cooking" and time and creativity, so i'll wait patiently, but breathlessly, to the forecoming evolutions, because I feel that there is something very significant in the whole thing...
Thanks!
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Dave,

I fully agree with your point about potential. A natal chart shows a person's potential and of course potential is realised over time a bit at a time and sometimes some potential may not be realised at all. So people even in their 50s or 60s may still have quite a piece of potential to achieve. My daughter is 24 so there is still a lot of room there.

I appreciate your point about whether or not proximity is a factor. It certainly would be one of the issues I would want to look at more closely. There are certain traditional techniques which use some three planet runs or perhaps combinations would be a better term here. Seventeenth century astrologers would certainly consider it significant if a planet was 'sandwiched' by Mars and Saturn or by Venus and Jupiter. However I think they would only consider the issue significant if the planets were either in the same sign, or possibly the same house. Thus they would not give significance to say, Mars in Cancer, Mercury in Leo and Saturn in Libra, (with no other intervening planets). Clearly the Sandbach and Ballard approach would give this run significance.

The possibility of looking at development over life is fascinating and I think it was A. T. Mann who also tried to look at the idea of development through his 'Life Time Astrology' approach (though this latter approach is heavily related to the houses).

As you say there is a lot of work still to be done on this approach. One of the problems of a 'cookbook' approach (and this will apply to conventional astrology just as much) is that the statements become general and it is difficult to be specific. General statements are bound to score some hits. Hopefully as the technique is developed then there will be a clearer correlation between prediction and event (or character).
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For Minderwiz


Relative to development time and space between planets in a combination -- perhaps we could start looking at this issue. Two things need to be considered. 1) This thread is titled "Different House Systems" and we have gotten off of that track. Do we need to continue within a thread titled Planets in Containment? 2) Since we already have done your daughter's planets should we explore editing the deliniations given previously to reflect the earlier-later developmental factors? This would neccessitate sharing the chart -- you or she may not care for that. 3) After I do M-press's planets (either here or on a new thread) we might ask for the planet positions (sign and degree) and then afterwards edit those to reflect developmental early-later factors. This could be interesting. Perhaps everyone watching and participating in this thread might want to comment -- there are a lot of quiet readers out there. Dave.
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