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Planets in Containment compared to conventional chart reading.

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Planets in Containment compared to conventional chart reading.


Planets in Containment is a methodology of chart interpretation which does not require the use of signs, houses or aspects. This astrological tool utilizes a series of three-planet combinations to provide an interpretation. First, list your planets, ASC and MC in CCW (Counter-Clock Wise) order, starting at any point -- although most start their list from the ASCendant degree. List only the planets and two angles. Second, the interpretation is done using the most CW (Clock Wise) planet of each successive three-planet combination as the basis or foundation, the middle planet as the focus of how the combination will be expressed, while the most CCW planet will provide a direction for the form of expression.
***
This thread is a continuation of a thread "Different House Systems" started by M-press -- a thread which got a little off subject but which provided a deep insight into the subject of how to interpret a chart without using aspects, signs and houses. That extensive thread involved the participation of M-press, Lee and Minderwiz. I appreciate their interest and enthusiasm, and I also invite the many others who viewed that thread to join in this thread in any manner they feel appropriate.
***
A resource for this concept is a book "Planets in Containment" by John Sandbach and Roon Ballard, published Seek-It Publications, Birmingham, MI, USA with the first printing in 1980. The concept has been explored and developed in whole and in part by Dane Rudyhar, Marc Edmond Jones, Michael Meyer, Raymond Merriman, Volguine and others.
***
THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD is to explore the use of Planetary Containments and to compare their interpretation to what would come from a conventional chart reading using planets in signs, houses, aspects, rulerships, etc., etc. Along those lines, I again suggest that you review the thread "Different House Systems." I will be bringing over M-press's planetary listing given there and doing a comparison in this thread between my "Containment" interpretation and her actual chart as an initial means for comparing these two methodologies. Dave.
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I'm sorry Dave, stupid question time, what does "CCW" mean? Is it counter-clockwise?

-- Lee
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Thanks for the brief introduction Dave.

I think my first question/issue is really whether it is free of signs! I know that you do not explicitly consider the sign placement but the whole sequence of planets at any one time is against the backdrop of the signs - the Zodiac gives the planetary positions meaning, whether they are explicitly stated or not. Indeed the planets cannot be referenced in sequence without the signs, or a method derived from them.

For all intents and purposes, everyone who is alive now has been born with Pluto between Gemini and Sagittarius For all but the last couple of years, Neptune was in the same sign or the succeeding sign (the difference is now two signs). Mercury and Venus are never far from the Sun, usually in the same sign or one of the adjacent signs, though Venus in some circumstances can be two signs away. the distribution of planets is therefore not random - there are sequences which are zodiacal in nature.

The other point relating to signs is that signs and planets are not completely divorced and separate. Even the ancients saw similarites between the characteristics of planets and the characteristics of signs. Modern psychological astrologer, (of whom I am not one) seem to regard planets and signs (and indeed houses) as being equivalent in their Astrological Alphabet. Even if we take up a traditional stance there is some 'sign' characteristic which is overlaid onto the planet.

There is therefore a sign pattern which determies the planetary sequence and this is transferred onto the natal chart by referencing the sequence to the Ascendant and Midheaven.

My point I think, is that no matter how much we declare the analysis sign free and try to ignore sign position, the sequence of planets is not sign free and there is a meaning to their sequence, derived from sign position, whether we choose to see it or not.
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Reply to prior posts.


Hello. Note that I have edited the opening post. I had not had time to complete my writing before having to leave for a dental appointment.
*** For Minderwiz and the comment about planets not being free of signs. As I understand your remarks, I don't believe I agree. The planets have energy-expression attributes. The "original" viewable planets were associated with signs at one time in various ways, but there are now more planets and the various planet pairs that supposedly jointly rule some signs have meanings abscribed to them that are inherently different. For example, Mars is not Pluto, Jupiter is not Neptune, Saturn is not Aquarius. As for planetary order being a given for certain groups within a time span -- Neptune and Pluto -- I note that for much of the period when they were in the same sign or within thirty degrees of each other that the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus or combinations of two-three-all of them could be found between Neptune and Pluto. I can't quite grasp a natural planetary order relative to signs either since the signs (if we abscribe conventional planets to them) would suggest a sequence of Mars, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars/Pluto, Jupiter, Saturn, Saturn/Uranus, Jupiter/Neptune. I'm not sure what order there is there except the rational of working backwards and forward from the Cancer/Leo dividing line and giving the Sun and Moon only one sign and the older planets two signs each? Again, I have to run but I'll re-read the posts when I have sufficient time and correct any of my misconceptions. I also want to start comparing M-press's Containments and convention chart -- which anyone else is also free to do. Thanks for the input. Dave.
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M-press: Data & Sun interpretation


M-press had supplied chart data in a prior post in the thread Different House Systems. That data is given here. Following this I will compare the two interpretations for her Sun.
*** Planet listing in CCW (counter clock wise) order. Asc., Saturn, Moon, Pluto, Uranus, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Sun, Neptune, Mercury, MC, Node.
*** Following the interpretation of these using Containment theory, M-press supplied the actual chart data: Nov. 21, 1920 at 2:30 pm EET, Athens, Greece, Long. 023E42, Lat. 37N58.
*** Containment interpretation for Jupiter-SUN-Neptune (edited slightly for context). Social sensitivity, involvement and contacts support the Sun's strong self-identity and desire to integrate all components of a plan or of an organization's resources to reach an ideal or play out a message. Perhaps the venus-jupiter-sun pattern is a strong part of this. How do you seek to influence large numbers of people, M-Press? NOTE, in the previous thread where the original interpretation was provided it had been seen that there were no planets between the ASC and MC. This is not covered in Containment theory as noted in the book. My sense was that this could be interpreted "MC-ASC-Saturn or as Neptune-MC-ASC for these two angles. I had noted that this suggested that M-press might work this out as being a spokesperson or front-man for something (project, organization, movement).
*** Actual chart aspects/sign/house position: Sun is in the 8th, in Scorpio at 28 degrees -- conjunct Neptune at 0 Sag, square the Moon (4 Virgo, sixth) and nodal axis, trine ASC at 2 Aries, and sextile Pluto at 29 Virgo (near DSC degree). The Sun takes on an idealistic or artistic quality (Neptune) that strives to demonstrate a public acceptance (Moon in closing square) through an easy manner of expression (ASC trine). An intensity of purpose is projected through her work (Pluto at DSC). The Sun brings deep symbolism and personal meaning (Scorpio) out in a particualr and detailed fashion (nature of artistic expression) but with a great variety (Moon). I leave this for other to comment on. Dave.
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Containment interpretation for M-press


After writing the previous posting on M-press's SUN it occured to me that the interpretation of Containments works much better when you can read them all in sequence. While this also true to a degree with reading a chart in a conventional way, it is possible to discuss (in that case) the SUN and its signs/houses/aspects as a distinct component with more understanding than doing so for a Containment. To, here is M-press's Containment interpretation taken from the other thread where it was posted as "No Aspects -- Part 4 for M-Press."
***
Relative to your planet listing I note the following: The nodes and Chiron are not noted in the reference book, and I do not utilize Chiron in any of my work -- so it's doubtful if I could shed any significant insights relative to it. We'll continue using the same format as used with Minderwiz's listing.
*** mc-ASC-saturn. Personal goals, corporate goals and public posture is expressed on a personal level -- as a spokesman for a company or institution or in a public-relations like advocation. You may, for example, find unique expression through a given discipline or interest.
*** asc-SATURN-moon. Personal experience can be utilized to structure ones daily routings, gaining efficiency and control over an enviornment that strikes you as being to changable. Others who may have impressed you in the past might provide a profile for your own mannerisms or ways of dealing with the public. The public may become a focus for your own training and studies as you tend to seek out service opportunities.
NOTE: The two previous interpretations are not to be found in the book referenced earlier in this thread as the combination of the ASC and MC is not included in any three-planet combination. Therefore I would be appreciative of any feedback on these combinations as well as the final neptune-MC-asc combo. Dave.
*** saturn-MOON-pluto. Family heritage and past training impacts the manner in which you deal with people. There may be a reluctance to "let go" in some situations -- this may have prompted a break or change in life style or family connections to faciliate or permit you in following your passions and vision.
*** moon-PLUTO-uranus. Earlier experiences in home life and in public situations may have provided a confidence level and skill set sufficient to meet some unusual challenges in your life. You tend not to live a sheltered life. You either look for freedom's or find ways to help others find freedom of one sort or another.
*** pluto-URANUS-mars. I sense flashes of cognition in this pattern. How might they occur? Large groups, institutions and/or government experiences might have prompted a social sense that seeks a form of activism. This is a heavy pattern that can symbolically show itself in very many ways. In this case I'll not try for specifics until or unless there is an opportunity to look at the complete chart or in a one-on-one dialog.
*** uranus-MARS-venus. Venus seeks to channel activities into a harmonious and pleasing venue. Is your Mars creative, active, angry, disciplined, emotional or a curious driver to understand? I suspect it may be the latter of all the possibilities mentioned. But Mars can express itself in many ways, often with tints of individuality, or at times of your own choosing.
*** *** mars-VENUS-jupiter. Venus, drawing up the Mars energy, is a seductress pattern. It suggests an internal aggressiveness that drives a creative, harmonizing, socializing and acquisitive nature that seeks to play before a crowd and fulfill a social service vision.
*** venus-JUPITER-sun. Just as we had a complementary pair in the previous 3 planet containment (Mars & Venus), we also have another pair here -- Venus & Jupiter (benifics) as well as Jupiter & Sun (the only two radiating bodies in the solar system). This is self-powering combination, optimism in overdrive. This is a center stage pattern, a before the crowd and performing on a high pattern. How is a celeberty aura to be managed to achieve goals? Perhaps when I get to the point where I summarize and synthesize these combinations it will be possible to paint some concrete examples of this pattern.
*** jupiter-SUN-neptune. This comes back to an earlier pattern where the question of how the MC and ASC worked out in terms of being a spokesman or front-man for something. Here, social sensitivity, involvement and contacts support the Sun's strong self-identity and desire to integrate all components of a plan or of an organization's resources to reach an ideal or play out a message. Perhaps the venus-jupiter-sun pattern is a strong part of this. How do you seek to influence large numbers of people, M-Press?
*** sun-NEPTUNE-mercury. Ethics and beliefs support an idealism and vision that leads to mental imaging, plans, talk and suggestions -- or internal daydreaming. Plans can be subject to constant revision, there may be trouble articulating or convincing others relative to your point of view. The question that arises is, "do you do things on a personal scale or do you have an opportunity to work in the public eye on behalf of a large orgainization of some sort?" Its easer to work on a personal level, of course, but time might permit the development of opportunities in marketing or as a press representative (examples) to speak for others, or to act as a religous spokesperson or critic.
*** neptune-MERCURY-mc. The prior combination feeds directly into this planetary containment. Will your words and plans find a clear outlet, will they manifest as public achievements?
*** mercury-MC-asc. Here we end up almost on the same vein as the one we started with. The MC is the focus, Mercury provides a mental or internal vision, and the Asc seeks to direct this energy pattern. This pattern could support a writer, a press release writer, a speaker or spokesperson, a salesman, someone who talks to others.
*** SUMMARY. Astrologers see a chart as "potential." Potential requires an enviornment that enables it to unfold. That a key question here, "What is your environment?" You have had a decade as an adult to build a resume, connections, and firm up your interest areas. The sequence of MC, ASC and Saturn suggests a highly structured or specialized "sales" mode -- be it as a representative for an organization, a free-lancer within an industry, or a person-to-person selling of your services and skills. Family connections may have served to get you started or now serve your efforts. There seems to be a "freedom" streak here that may just be personality but is more likely a result of a major break with family or tradition. In some manner, intuition and inspiration seem wrapped up in what you do. Except in sales or marketing, PR, inventive areas (I don't see this), writing, film or TV work, or counseling/psychology intuition and inspiration is not often welcome in large organizations. I suspect you operate more as a lone-wolf, consultant, or self-employed service area. The Mars factor, among other things, points to a level of creativity that is applied in perhaps several areas. Personal magnetism and close contacts are utilized to advance your goals. Optimism and confidence are high, perhaps not always with reason. The mind's plans and hopes are both helpful and distractive I suspect. Unless there is a background of formal education and skill building within the commercial/organizational world, you tend to work one-on-one or for smaller, independent groups. So, do we have a visionary, a tarot reader, a charming con-man, a sales person, a consultant, etc.? This seems to be the area of focus. The questions, if this is true, to ask next is how to utilize these many strengths to best serve you. Dave.
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Chart Interpretation for M-press: MOON


This segment addresses the Containment interpretation for the Moon and then a chart interpretation for M-press's Moon.
***
saturn-MOON-pluto. Family heritage and past training impacts the manner in which you deal with people. There may be a reluctance to "let go" in some situations -- this may have prompted a break or change in life style or family connections to faciliate or permit you in following your passions and vision.
***
Chart interpretation for the Moon:
NOTE, I have edited this based on M-press reporting that she gave an incorrect birth time -- the adjusted time (4:30 pm) moves the Moon ahead a degree and moves the Moon back into the fifth house. This changes the interpretation quite a bit.
Moon is in Virgo, 5th house, conjunct the South Node, square the Scorpio Sun in the 7th and Neptune (Sag) in the 7th. Note that the Sun sextiles the MC degree. Moon conjunct the South Node suggests a need to deal with past life or early development issues relating to creative training, education environment, etc. relative to 5th house symbolism. This may relate to an authority figure (square Sun) or some influence of a religous or theatrical/arts oriented person. You had your own ideas and now seek to express them clearly, differentiating yourself from earlier influences or associations. Moon rules the 3rd while yielding the 4th house to the Sun -- hence the creative urge has to be communicated and demonstrative of your individual core values. The conflict is further suggested by the Sun, Neptune and Mercury being in the 4th house of the Moon (using derivitive house symbology) and the charts 7th house (relationships, open adversaries) which suggests a strong early home or training influence. Dave.
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Hi Dave,

I hope the dental visit was not to painful.

I must admit that my post on the signs/containment was something of a top of my head post, and I didn't really make myself clear in places (probably most LOL) so I'll try and turn it into a more measured post - though it may be later on tomorrow before I can escape the clutches of work for a bit.
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We will both probably have to make haste more slowly. This is a complicated subject for many -- we had over 260 posts on the original thread and are already in the 40's here -- so there are a lot of people following this even if they are not joining in. My current quandry is about the manner in which I can better compare the "whole sense" of the Containment picture to the conventional chart interpretation. It's like comparing mid-points to a regular chart -- you get the same ultimate picture but the small groups/aspects of planets/etc. are all different from each other. We'll try. Dave.
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Just saw this!!!!!


Hi there!
dealing with the last of Mercury retro, I was not aware you started this thread!

I started reading the "no signs" part between the two of you, and it is all very fascinating... Yes, a bit hard to follow, i'm sure I'm not the only one who feels it's a "advanced" class!

I read quickly(gotta run-some wine thing), and I saw Moon in the 6th?

i became suspicious!
Thjere is a mistake here...
I was born on Nov 21, 1970 (and not 1920!!!!-but this maybe only a typo mistake, Dave?) Place, the same...sunny Greece...

but, MY MISTAKE is, that I wrote time 14:30, but it's actually 4:30pm, which makes it 16:30...!
I'm so sorry for this! I feel horrible! all this time and energy to talk about the "moved" moon!

I feel honoured and a bit embarrsed too to be the subject of this talk, but this will go under "serendipitous" events in which I put myself into, so I might as well enjoy it!!!!

Please let me know if you need anymore specific feedback from me... i will follow digesting for a while...

Thanks?sharing your knowledge is the best gift! i would have never found this subject anywhere else!
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