New at Trionfi.com

Huck

The book about playing cards from 1848 by William Andrew Chatto is now online

http://autorbis.net/tarot/biography/tarot-history-researchers/chatto.html

We searched this text some time ago, but books.google.com didn't offer it. But books.google.com seems to develop. Now it's there.

Although a lot of the details are meanwhile overcome, occasionally he offers "unknown" details: for instance an interesting opinion about the origin of the term "Jack" as expression for the Valet.

And he offers some pictures, naturally only "reproductions".
 

Ross G Caldwell

Thanks very, very much Huck for reminding us how good Google books will be for every researcher. There are frustrations with libraries who want to do it "their way" even with books centuries old and long in the public domain - these are the snippets you sometimes get with Google books even with articles from the 19th century - when you go to the link "Where's the rest of the book", it leads to a page talking about copyright.

There are some good old sources on Google books, besides Singer (which Huck previously noted) and lately Chatto.

Neither Heinecken nor Breitkopf are up yet, but there are -
Gabriel Peignot,
"Recherches historiques et littéraires sur les danses des morts et sur l'origine des cartes à jouer"
http://books.google.com/books?id=rc0FAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA93&dq="danse+macabre"&as_brr=1&hl=fr#PPP5,M1

Peignot explicitly disclaims seeing any thematic link between the two (Michael, your idea is still safe from precedents!), but he does appear (I've just begun to read it) to see a link between the two via the means of production and popularization.

Then there is a Dutch book about the recently discussed (on Aeclectic) Flokskaartjen and the Dance of Death -
J. C. Schultz Jacobi,
"De Nederlandsche Doodendans"
http://books.google.com/books?id=tx...ubject:"Playing+cards"&as_brr=1&hl=fr#PPA1,M1

Jacobi might make an explicit comparison between these cards and the Dance of Death, but I can't read Dutch well enough to say. I'll find out soon however, if somebody else doesn't get to it first.

Another important item for tarot historiography is Leopold Cicognara's 1834 book -
"Memorie spettanti alla storia della calcografia", which is the first book to talk about and give depictions of the Cary-Yale tarot. This book is also the source of many scholarly myths, including the idea that (IIRC) Marziano da Tortona was the painter of this deck.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QG...ver&dq=subject:"Playing+cards"&as_brr=1&hl=fr

Many many more, I am sure. Thanks for the heads up about the Chatto Huck, I've been wanting it for a long time.

Ross
 

kwaw

Huck said:
Did you note, that your source presents 4 playing cards (reproductions) of 1570 at the end (after the Flooskartjes)?

Seem to be Spanish Tarocchi cards, compare p. 29

The Aluette pack of Brittany is also a spanish suited deck, and also has the image of king and queen facing each other on the 5 of coins, probably originally portraits of Ferdinand and Isabelle of Spain according to Sylvia Mann, though she writes the earliest Aluette she had seen was from 1587. She writes that cardmakers of Toulouse and Limoges were making packs with Spanish suit marks for a hundred years before that and that 15th century Toulouse cardmakers were called naiperii rather than carterii. The earliest extent cards with Spanish suits were all made in France according to Mann and notes that Allemagne suggest they took their cards from Flanders and that the word naipes is from the flemish word for paper knaep (she gives the saracenic explanation too).(Mann, p.55 & 60)

I can't read the text, on what basis are they thought to be spanish tarot cards rather than being standard Spanish suited playing cards?

Kwaw
Mann, Sylvia. Collecting Playing Cards (Arco Publications 1966).
 

Huck

I've manifested a page for the 4 Spanish Tarock cards from 1570 in the Dutch source, found by Ross:

http://trionfi.com/0/p/87/

1570-ace-swords.jpg
 

kwaw

Huck said:
I've manifested a page for the 4 Spanish Tarock cards from 1570 in the Dutch source, found by Ross:

I don't think you could call them tarock cards if they are the only four to survive; why the presumption that they are not from a standard spanish or aluette deck? The ace of swords and five of coins of a 19th century aluette deck are shown on wikipedia here (though the standard image of facing king and queen has been changed somewhat):

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluette

quote:
"Aluette (or la Vache, "The Cow Game") is played in Vendée and the coasts of Brittany, using a 48 card Spanish suited pack with special designs. Aluette is a very peculiar trick-taking game where suits are irrelevant. Partners use mimics to signal their hands. The mechanism is similar to that of early games like Truc / Trut and Put. The use of Spanish suited cards is surprising, but there is a theory that these suits were originally used throughout France and were displaced in most of the country by French suits when those were invented. Aluette may be an extremely old game: some late 15th-century records from the South-West of France mention a card game called Luettes. However, Nantes clearly appears as the modern cradle of the game: until c. 1700 there was in Nantes a large group of Spanish merchants, and Spanish suited cards made in Thiers (Auvergne) were conveyed on the Loire river up to Nantes where they were shipped to Bilbao and Navarra. The hypothesis of a late introduction (17th century?) through Spanish merchants in Nantes is not unlikely."

http://www.pagat.com/put/aluette.html

Andy's Playing Cards:
http://playingcards.freewebpages.org/cards80.htm

De Mellet also refers to the names of these cards:

III Names of various Cards, preserved by the Spaniards.

The names of several of these cards have been preserved by the Spaniards, by which we can discern something of their character. These names are seven. The three of deniers, mysterious number, called the Lord, the Master, devoted to supreme God, Great Jove. Three of cups, called the Lady, devoted to the Queen of the Heaven. The One-eyed one or the Ace of Coins, Phoebe 'lampadis instar', devoted to Apollo. The Cow or two of cups, devoted to Apis or Isis. The Grand Last Nine, the Nine of Cups; devoted to the Destiny. The Small Last Nine of Coins, devoted to Mercury. The Snake or the Ace of Batons (Ophion), a symbol famous & sacred among the Egyptians.

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Recherches_sur_les_Tarots

Kwaw
 

Huck

kwaw said:
I can't read the text, on what basis are they thought to be spanish tarot cards rather than being standard Spanish suited playing cards?

Kwaw

The author speaks from Tarocchi cards, that is from a "Spaansche Tarokspil" - which shouldn't guarantee, that the cards are not usual Spanish playing cards.

The owner of the cards is somebody else, Heer CHRISTIAAN VAN DER POST, te Leiden. I would think, when the deck included trumps, the author would have shown one of them.

But ... even with this condition ... playing cards of 16th century are rare
objects.

In the text is a passage, which seems to indicate, that something happened in 1574 (not connected to the presented 4 cards). Either somebody learnt to play Tarot or he found cards:

"'t Verwondert mij zelfs, hoe zoo iets geschreven
heeft kunnen worden door VAN BERKHEY, die toch de beide
Tarokspelen wel zal gekend hebben, door zijnen voorzaat WILLEM AELBRECHTZ BERKHEY, den 3den October 1574, toen Leiden
was ontzet, te Leijerdorp in de schans van den spaanschen
overste FRANCISCO DE VALDES gevonden."

For this:

"October 3, 1574

In the 16th century the Dutch rebelled against the authority of Spain. Most of the fighting took place in the south of the Netherlands; the northern part could consider itself liberated towards the end of the 16th century. Before that, though, battles took place and the siege of Leiden was an important event.
Leiden was besieged for nearly a year in 1574. The Dutch army, led by William of Orange (nicknamed "the Silent"), deliberately flooded the fields around Leiden, breaking the dikes, to force the Spanish armies to raise their siege. The Spanish tried to lure the citizens into surrender with promises, but the people of Leiden decided to stick it out in spite of a terrible shortage of food which brought the people of Leiden on the verge of starvation. Finally the Spanish withdrew, and the siege ended on October 3, 1574. The Dutch army entered the city with food: bread with cheese and herring. The date on which the siege ended, the third of October (Leidens Ontzet or Leiden's Deliverance), is still celebrated every year with large scale festivities, and.... with bread and herring. "

So WILLEM AELBRECHTZ BERKHEY, who was present at this date, should have known, that two games of Tarot were found in "Leijerdorp in de schans van den spaanschen overste FRANCISCO DE VALDES" (Schans is German "Schanze" and means an attacking bastion during a siege, likely with some canons on it; the chief of this bastion was Francisco de Valdes). When the Spanish troops had disappeared, the cards were found.

Another man with the same name Berkhey (a descendant of the other Berkhey and "Van Berkhey was a doctor and naturalist who became senior lecturer in natural history at Leiden University and is best known for his monumental works on the natural history of Holland. He was also a poet; in light-hearted mood he here provides verses to accompany de Mare's etchings." - a man living at the end of 18th century, the web knows him; he was dead in 1812 and naturally also 1850 in the time of the author) has an opinion in the specific card question the booklet is about, which our author doesn't understand.

This younger Berkhey wrote about Leyden 1574 - so he really should have known that local matter about the Tarot cards.
BERKHEY, J. LE FRANCQ v. Het verheerlykt Leyden, bij het tweede eeuwgetijde van desz. heuchlijk ontzet, in den Jaare 1574. Leyden, 1774.

Jehan Bresson was the cardmaker. This sounds like a French producer.
 

kwaw

Huck said:
The author speaks from Tarocchi cards, that is from a "Spaansche Tarokspil" - which shouldn't guarantee, that the cards are not usual Spanish playing cards.

The owner of the cards is somebody else, Heer CHRISTIAAN VAN DER POST, te Leiden. I would think, when the deck included trumps, the author would have shown one of them.

But ... even with this condition ... playing cards of 16th century are rare
objects.

True, as I wrote above the earliest aluette deck Sylvia Mann had seen was dated 1587, and here we have what looks like an earlier one from 1570, but from the available evidence it would surely be more accurate to describe it as an aluette or spanish deck than a tarot deck; the author has made an error I think in describing it as such and rather than perpetuate that error on your site by calling them four spanish tarocchi cards, which scould lead other also into error, it would be better to give them a more accurate title and description (as being of the spanish suited or aluette pack for example). Dummet mocks Mellet for conflating the Spanish Aluette with the subject of tarot, for respect of the site it is better not to make same mistakes perhaps...

Kwaw
 

Huck

kwaw said:
True, as I wrote above the earliest aluette deck Sylvia Mann had seen was dated 1587, and here we have what looks like an earlier one from 1570, but from the available evidence it would surely be more accurate to describe it as an aluette or spanish deck than a tarot deck; the author has made an error I think in describing it as such and rather than perpetuate that error on your site by calling them four spanish tarocchi cards, which scould lead other also into error, it would be better to give them a more accurate title and description (as being of the spanish suited or aluette pack for example). Dummet mocks Mellet for conflating the Spanish Aluette with the subject of tarot, for respect of the site it is better not to make same mistakes perhaps...

Kwaw

Well, the author calls it a Tarokspil. From the cards, which I see, I can't see, if it is one or if it is not one and likely Heer CHRISTIAAN VAN DER POST isn't reachable ...

... :) ... if Dummett would start some mockery about this case, we could start some mockery about matters concerning the 5x14-theory ... a debate, we're really interested in.

Old wisdom of webmasters and others with some experience: if you wish a reaction, write something wrong ... :)

But you're right. An Aluette-game of Sylvia-Mann in 1691 has 3 cards, which are more or less identical to 3 of the 4 shown cards. And another Aluette deck has similarities to the 4th card.

But the report knows 3 "Tarokspils". 2 from 1574 and one, which was in possession of Christiaan van der Post (lucky or unlucky coincidence for the author) und which was of 1570 (and which is the Aluette game, misleading the author in his conclusion).
 

kwaw

Huck said:
But the report knows 3 "Tarokspils". 2 from 1574 and one, which was in possession of Christiaan van der Post (lucky or unlucky coincidence for the author) und which was of 1570 (and which is the Aluette game, misleading the author in his conclusion).

But how trustworthy is the report when the only illustration of one of these 'tarot' decks is not a tarot deck at all? How safe are the other references then?

Kwaw