PKT:Secret Trad#2 - Study Group

Richard

I think he was referring to the grade system, gradual attainment. The best way to reflect on the Trumps is, of course, to actually travel the paths, isn't it?

Indeed! But that quote could easily be interpreted to be that the Trumps mean whatever your free associative whim wants them to mean. If that is the case, why were the authors so careful to include astrological and other symbols into the cards? I should hope we can stay away from pedophilic dwarfs even if Mary bails (which I hope is not permanent).
 

Abrac

33. The methods show also that the Trumps Major at least have been adapted to fortune-telling rather than belong thereto.

34. The common divinatory meanings which will be given in the third part are largely arbitrary attributions, or the product of secondary and uninstructed intuition; or, at the very most, they belong to the subject on a lower plane, apart from the original intention.

35. If the Tarot were of fortune-telling in the root-matter thereof, we should have to look in very strange places for the motive which devised it—to Witchcraft and the Black Sabbath, rather than any Secret Doctrine.​
 

Abrac

Line 35 seems like a strange thing to say, but I found something in Waite's Book of Black Magic and of Pacts, 1898 which can partially explain it.

"Each of the occult sciences was, however, liable to that species of abuse which is technically but fantastically known as Black Magic. Astrology, or the appreciation of the celestial influences in their operation upon the nature and life of man, could be perverted in the composition of malefic talismans by means of those influences. Esoteric Medicine, which consisted in the application of occult forces to the healing of disease in man, and included a traditional knowledge of the medicinal properties resident in some substances disregarded by ordinary pharmacy, produced in its malpractice the secret science of poisoning and the destruction of health, reason or life by unseen forces. The transmutation of metals by Alchemy resulted in their sophistication. In like manner, Divination, or the processes by which lucidity was supposed to be induced, became debased into various forms of witchcraft and Ceremonial Magic into dealing with devils."​

It seems that by "Witchcraft and the Black Sabbath" he means this debased form of divination. It doesn't really explain why this would be the case though.
 

Richard

33. The methods show also that the Trumps Major at least have been adapted to fortune-telling rather than belong thereto.

34. The common divinatory meanings which will be given in the third part are largely arbitrary attributions, or the product of secondary and uninstructed intuition; or, at the very most, they belong to the subject on a lower plane, apart from the original intention.

35. If the Tarot were of fortune-telling in the root-matter thereof, we should have to look in very strange places for the motive which devised it—to Witchcraft and the Black Sabbath, rather than any Secret Doctrine.​

Certainly 35 is a bizarre statement, but the important point is that he did not have a particularly high view of the use of the Trumps in fortune telling.
 

Zephyros

Certainly 35 is a bizarre statement, but the important point is that he did not have a particularly high view of the use of the Trumps in fortune telling.

And yet he published a book which despite the section we are now studying, is greatly geared directly in that direction. Missing the Keys, the entire thing is rather theoretical, and that would leave a vacuum into which fortune telling was bound to enter. The only reason we ourselves can even try to understand this section is because we actually do possess the secrets he was protecting, or some of them. At the very least, we know not to take everything at face value, which is far more than I can say for either the readers of his own times or today's.

I think he knew this, which makes that statement all the more perplexing. While reading this line in preparation for this group it made me recall Crowley's review of this book where he accuses Waite of overly hinting at things. This line is one of the most annoying examples of this. He tells you that the most exalted use of his cards isn't in telling fortunes but then leaves it at that.
 

Richard

And yet he published a book which despite the section we are now studying, is greatly geared directly in that direction......

However, even in the section of PKT (Part III § 3) which gives divinatory meanings for the Trumps, he writes, "The allocation of a fortune-telling aspect to these cards is the story of a prolonged impertinence."

In think he included Part III primarily in order to include fortune tellers in the target market. As it turned out, fortune tellers probably account for most of the sales. This was important to Waite because his publications were a source of income.
 

INIVEA

Come now, surely not everyone is too intimated to comment. Originally there was significant interest in such a study group. Has that evaporated merely because the first attempt seems to have fizzled? Please speak up. Opinions are needed.

lol, <intimated> does Waite <Illiterate> people count.


34. The common divinatory meanings which will be given in the third part are largely arbitrary attributions, or the product of secondary and uninstructed intuition; or, at the very most, they belong to the subject on a lower plane, apart from the original intention.

35. If the Tarot were of fortune-telling in the root-matter thereof, we should have to look in very strange places for the motive which devised it—to Witchcraft and the Black Sabbath, rather than any Secret Doctrine.​

<Intimidated more> Line 34. According to Waite I follow <uninstructed intuition> and that I follow on the <lower Plane> from his original intention of the how the deck is to be used.

Line 35. I am <dammed> for my motive follows along the lines of Witchcraft and the Black Sabbath, than any secret doctrine of Waites. <Oh dear, Me>

Line 35 seems like a strange thing to say, but I found something in Waite's Book of Black Magic and of Pacts, 1898 which can partially explain it.

"Each of the occult sciences was, however, liable to that species of abuse which is technically but fantastically known as Black Magic. Astrology, or the appreciation of the celestial influences in their operation upon the nature and life of man, could be perverted in the composition of malefic talismans by means of those influences. Esoteric Medicine, which consisted in the application of occult forces to the healing of disease in man, and included a traditional knowledge of the medicinal properties resident in some substances disregarded by ordinary pharmacy, produced in its malpractice the secret science of poisoning and the destruction of health, reason or life by unseen forces. The transmutation of metals by Alchemy resulted in their sophistication. In like manner, Divination, or the processes by which lucidity was supposed to be induced, became debased into various forms of witchcraft and Ceremonial Magic into dealing with devils."​

It seems that by "Witchcraft and the Black Sabbath" he means this debased form of divination. It doesn't really explain why this would be the case though.

<Very intimidated> Seemingly that I have fallen into depths of Witchcraft and Black Magic, <Waite not approved> hence according to Waite, I shouldn't be using his deck. Should I be <Dancing with Devil> Looks like I am back to shopping for another deck, Night Sun Tarot looks more appealing to go along my wicked ways of Divination, Witchcraft, and Black Magic. <roaring with laughter>

However, even in the section of PKT (Part III § 3) which gives divinatory meanings for the Trumps, he writes, "The allocation of a fortune-telling aspect to these cards is the story of a prolonged impertinence."

<Really intimidated> I dared to used the Divinatory meanings of the Trumps <surrounded by the flames of hell> lol

In think he included Part III primarily in order to include fortune tellers in the target market. As it turned out, fortune tellers probably account for most of the sales. This was important to Waite because his publications were a source of income.

and Yet Waite <gladly accepted> money from the <Devils hand> lol

I think he knew this, which makes that statement all the more perplexing. While reading this line in preparation for this group it made me recall Crowley's review of this book where he accuses Waite of overly hinting at things. This line is one of the most annoying examples of this. He tells you that the most exalted use of his cards isn't in telling fortunes but then leaves it at that.

Maybe, Waite was <pointing a finger towards> Crowley's for his <Witch craft and Black Sabbath > ways. <Educating> the public.

ETA: not to go off topic, but if Waite were Christian, I think he forgot to read the book of Daniel, Daniel divined with God and he for told the Future of the 4 Kings of Babylonian. Does this Make Daniel a man of <black magic and Black Sabbath> because he for told their fate, if they didn't change their ways. Daniel, I guess is dancing with the devil too <fortune teller>
 

Yelell


35. If the Tarot were of fortune-telling in the root-matter thereof, we should have to look in very strange places for the motive which devised it—to Witchcraft and the Black Sabbath, rather than any Secret Doctrine.​

A Manual of Cartomancy
As we are not dealing with elements of common fortune-telling, our next task is to ascertain the limits of the three worlds of inquiry. In matters of ordinary human prudence, it is assumed that the Querent is in a state of doubt and solicitude concerning some question of grave importance by which the course of his material life is likely to be affected. He is not seeking information on his chances at the next lottery or the winning horse at an immediately forthcoming race. The life of devotion is more especially allocated to cases of conscience, and it should be understood that the oracle, for example, reveals nothing on new matters of doctrine. It does not solve doubts concerning the Trinity or explain mysteries of eschatology- except indeed indirectly, by counsel, interpretation, and turning the intention of the seeker towards those holy things in which doubt and difficulty dissolve. On the other hand, the soul's progress is concerned with the highest spiritual things, and these are exclusive to the third world of research.

--------------------


The life of devotion - cases of conscience, higher spiritual things
"Common" fortune telling - lottery numbers and winning horses

The motive behind devising a system with "fortune telling" at it's heart would then be self serving evil?

The issues should be of "grave importance, "the intention of the seeker towards those holy things...."

His difference between fortune telling and divination? Intent?
 

Richard

......ETA: not to go off topic, but if Waite were Christian, I think he forgot to read the book of Daniel, Daniel divined with God and he for told the Future of the 4 Kings of Babylonian. Does this Make Daniel a man of <black magic and Black Sabbath> because he for told their fate, if they didn't change their ways. Daniel, I guess is dancing with the devil too <fortune teller>
Waite was not superstitious, nor was he a moralizer or a Bible pounding Christian. He does not say that fortune telling is evil, only that the origin of the use of Tarot for fortune telling is not part of the Secret Doctrine and suggests that the idea for such use may have arisen from witchcraft and such. That does not make it evil. As far as we know, fortune telling with playing cards (of which the Tarot minors are an example) existed before Tarot.

I myself don't have much use for fortune telling, but whatever its origins, it is not intrinsically an evil practice by any means. Even if it were, what's wrong with a little evil now and then? :D Waite himself was no saint. Crowley suggests that he was a tippler, and I see no reason to doubt it.
 

INIVEA

Waite was not superstitious, nor was he a moralizer or a Bible pounding Christian. He does not say that fortune telling is evil, only that the origin of the use of Tarot for fortune telling is not part of the Secret Doctrine and suggests that the idea for such use may have arisen from witchcraft and such. That does not make it evil. As far as we know, fortune telling with playing cards (of which the Tarot minors are an example) existed before Tarot.

I myself don't have much use for fortune telling, but whatever its origins, it is not intrinsically an evil practice by any means. Even if it were, what's wrong with a little evil now and then? :D Waite himself was no saint. Crowley suggests that he was a tippler, and I see no reason to doubt it.

Oh gotta have a little bit of evil now and then, yes yes :D

Oh well then that would explain the cards then, I can hear PCS "Waite you in the sauce again? sorry I don't understand, how do you want me to draw the card up, never mind I'll figure it out myself". lol <hence the confusion with the deck>

My LMS/RWS deck is very pleased to hear this. <no replacement by the Night Sun Tarot> lol

I myself also don't have much use for fortune telling, I like to tell of all the quantum parallel universes of multiple possibilities <pick one, anyone will do> But don't tell my Tarot deck that. My tarot deck fortune tells all the time. ie: 4 of Pentacles; I thought it meant staying home, being a home body, thinking about money, being a little greedy. Oh but my Deck had other ideas <hey stupid> you got a friend that's going to come by in 5 min with some leaf over spaghetti do you want it? <roaring with laughter>

Thanks LRichard for clearing this up with me, I can live with this now and not feel ashamed. lol

I'm still not registering the meaning of what "Secret Doctrine" means, <heading back over to re-read thread #1>