Blue Box Rider Waite RWS

rwcarter

gregory said:
There are NO blue box ones with USG copyrights on anywhere - except one sold on ebay recently and fraudulently, where the seller had put a newer deck in the box. They were called out; I don't know what happened after that - I think it was PROBABLY innocent....
gregory scared the pants off of me (and I'm wearing sweats right now, so that was really a feat!) with this statement. Cause I have a blue box with USG copyrights on it that I bought from eBay....

missy said:
• Slightly lighter blue lift-off box with World card (green wreath & purple scarf). Printed by A. G. Mueller. Rider & Co. -17-21 Conway Street - London W1P6JD. Copyright on lower right margins of cards. Same quality as U.S. Games. Not laminated."
Then missy posted the above from a post of tehuti's, and I felt better. The front of the box has the World dancer with green wreath and purple scarf. And although it has the copyrights on it, it's definitely not laminated, so I (hopefully) didn't get duped. (whew!)

sulis said:
Mine says it was printed for Rider and Co - London by A. G. Mueller - Switzerland.
Now this is interesting. The left side of the box says:

Conceived by A. E. Waite and drawn by Pamela Coleman Smith
Tarot Cards
printed for Rider & Company * London by A. G. Muller & Cie * Switzerland​

It has the misspelling of PCS's name, and the * should actually be dots.

The right side of the box says:

The original and only authorised edition of Tarot Cards
Rider & Co * 17-21 Conway Street * London W1P 6JD​

So assuming the deck that's in my box is the deck that came in the box, Sulis and I apparently have different printings of the light blue box with green wreath and purple scarf. I note these differences in the writing on the boxes:
  • Rider and Co (Sulis) vs Rider & Company (rwcarter)
  • A. G. Mueller (Sulis) vs A. G. Muller & Cie (rwcarter)

The address info jibes with what tehuti had originally posted. So if one wants the light blue box with green wreath and purple scarf but without USG copyright, then one needs to look for "Rider and Co" and "A. G. Mueller" on the sides of the box.

Rodney

ETA: The Sun in my deck looks like the Sun to the left of the blue box in the attachment missy included earlier. It has the same lettering and the extra spacing between the "N" and the ".", but it has the USG copyright on it.
 

coredil

Sulis said:
There is also a blue box version by Rider which is titled 'The Travellers Tarot'... Same blue box, same cards.
Yes, and don't forget to say that the Traveller's is a mini version of the deck ;)
 

coredil

Oh the Blue Box!
Just for the pleasure and to illustrate the confusion and what rwcarter wrote I post some scans and photos from 3 copy of my collection.

The cards within the boxes are identical and without copyright.
But the 3 Blue Boxes are different!
See for yourself :)

I must post this in three post:

1. Overview
2. Top
3. All sides

Have fun ;)

Some comments:
Looking at the overview pics, they seem at first sight to be identical, except for the different blue.
 

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coredil

Now the Top

Here too, the three pictures seem to be identical.
On the third picture the difference comes from a light shift of a color plate.
 

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coredil

And finally the Sides.

Here it is where one can find some differences.

Side Bottom: is identical but on box 2 the white letters are slightly thinner.

Side Left: only blue box 1 has the right spelling "Colman", 2 and 3 are identical

Side Top: Blue Box 1 has the Edition mention, 2 and 3 have not and are identical

Side Left:
1 has The Fitzroy Square adress + Waddington association
2 has the Conway adress
3 has the Fitzroy Square adress without Waddington association

Conclusion: Boxes are always a story for itself ;)

Best regards
 

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coredil

rwcarter said:
Cause I have a blue box with USG copyrights on it that I bought from eBay....
What do you mean exactly with this?
Do you mean a US Games copyright on the cards (it indeed happens sometimes with decks coming with the Blue Box) or do you mean a US Games copyright on the box itself?
 

Le Fanu

Just to add to the confusion of this thread (which lost me a few hours ago), I have to say that I bought - one rainy Monday after school in the winter of 1982 - a copy of the so-called Blue Box RWS deck. I remember the day well. At the time, this was the only edition of the RWS that I remember being available in England.

It has Rider & Co on the box, published by AG Muller, Fitzroy Square and has the mis-spelling of Pamela Coleman [sic] Smith on the box, which I only found out about last year when I read a comment here on AT. I looked and lo & behold, yes, it is mis-spelt.

What is odd is YES it is Rider & Co/AG Muller, YES it has U.S Games in the bottom right hand corner of all cards, NO I didn't buy it off ebay (but from an English bookshop one rainy day in 1982) and YES this was the deck commonly available at the time.

I also recently bought a back-up. My original is such a prized possesion (being one of the first decks I bought) and I picked one up on ebay.uk in December for a fiver, as I wanted one to carry around/ leave at work etc etc. Again, exactly the same box, exactly the same US Games copyright. I was hoping I'd get one without the copyright which I keep hearing about.

Plus - to confuse things even more - I bid but didn't win a RWS Blue Box on ebay UK before this. There was a photograph of the box and it was flattened and was definitely a tuckbox. I remember thinking "odd. Not like my box" and thought no more of it...

I love the RWS Blue Box. Unlaminated bliss...
 

rwcarter

coredil said:
What do you mean exactly with this?
Do you mean a US Games copyright on the cards (it indeed happens sometimes with decks coming with the Blue Box) or do you mean a US Games copyright on the box itself?
Sorry. The USG copyright is on the cards themselves, not on the box.

Thanks for the various pics. In most cases, my box is like the 3rd box in each pic EXCEPT my box that has the

RIDER & COMPANY
LONDON
Complete set of 78 cards
First published in 1910​

on the bottom of the box just says

TAROT CARDS​

on the top like your second box. But the coloring on my box is almost an exact duplicate of the coloring of your third box. And my LWB has the same 17-21 Conway Street address on it that the box has.

I don't know if it makes a difference, but I have two extra cards in my deck - a blank card and a "POPULAR TAROT DECKS AND BOOKS" card that lists titles by USG at the 38 East 32nd St address.

Rodney
 

gregory

My box is also like the third box in all examples, except for the top. Which is a bit faded - but the scarf would appear to have been blue once, and the wreath green. I guess it is just that it's weirdly faded though - as the layout is the same as the yellow. And the booklet is the same address, too. Bottom of box is plain blank white all over.

No copyright, no mention of USG, no lamination. 2 extra cards - both blank. I do feel rather sure that USG cards should not have been in the box, though - given the shaky relationship there seems to have been between them and Rider ! Maybe someone had a hold of extra boxes and put them in for convenience ?

We need Holly. That tuck box thing is weird.
 

gregory

PS: from Jensen's article:

Suggested Print History
1909, December: Selected line art illustrations (in Waite’s article for „Occult Review“)
1909, December: Pamela-A, first printrun. Blue Roses and Lilies back pattern. Deck approx. 38 mm. thick. Sold separately or in box with „Key...“, first edition (1910).
1910, April - ca. 1920: Pamela A - second printrun: Pebbled back pattern. Deck approx. 38 mm. thick, better (weightier) cardboard than first printrun. Sold separately or in box with „Key...“, first edition (1910) and with “The Key..”, New edition 1920.
1911: „The Pictorial Key to the Tarot“ (first edition) with line art as Pamela-A
ca. 1920 - early 1930s: Pamela B. Sold in box with „The Key, New edition“, dated either 1920 or 1931.
late 1920s - 1940s (?): Pamela-C. Sold separately or in box with „The Key, New edition“, dated 1931
ca. 1930s - 1940s (?): Pamela-D (photographic reprint). Publisher not determined.
late 1940’s - ca. 1977: Rider editions in blue boxes based on line art from „The Pictorial Key“.
A “Key..New edition“, dated respectively 1972, 73, 74 or 77, in soft blue cover, could bought separately. Special Traveller’s (!) edition deck dated 1975.
In the 1960‘s printed „in collaboration with Waddington“ (the English Playing Card Factory). From 1972 printed by AGMüller, Switzerland and later by Carta Mundi, Belgium
1971 til now: U.S.Games editions in yellow boxes + various language- and special editions.
1993 - “Original Rider/Waite Tarot” Reprint printed by AGMüller, Switzerland for The Estate of AW.Waite/Rider/USGames. Similar to
Pamela-C, but with blue roses and lillies back pattern

and also:
The period from the Second World War up till now would need another article, but it shall shortly be said that after the pattern war, Rider continued publishing the Waite-Smith deck. It was now printed in offset and came in heavy blue boxes. The line art was exactly as the illustrations in “The Pictorial Key” and as in Pam-A. In the same period the remakes began to show up. In the 1960’s a tarot revival began, stimulated by the flower-power and hippie communities particularly in the US, who took to tarot as a card reading tool. A well-known pack from 1968 is the recoloring by Frankie Albano, keeping to Smiths line art, but using a more intensive color scheme. Albano’s packs came in several sizes and were packed in yellow boxes. Great economical interests came in.
In 1971, Mr. Stuart R. Kaplan of US Games Systems Inc. saw the light and obtained a licence from Riders to publish the Waite-Smith Tarot. USGS’ decks came in yellow boxes quite similar to Albano’s, all USGS cards were marked with “© USGames 1971” and - here Rider’s name came in - the deck was now called “THE RIDER TAROT”, later changed to “RIDER TAROT” only.

Not a word on tuck boxes - but no suggestion that USG cards were EVER in blue boxes. (I do also wonder if the ebay tuck box could have been a pirate edition...) I will ask Frank if he knows of such a thing - nothing like asking the big guns !!!!