5s and Le Pape

I keep getting 5s in readngs for myself. Although my main source of numerology info is the Pythgorean Epic , which calls the 5s Crisis (Spiritual Crisis, Emotional Crisis, etc for the suits) I'm starting to think of them more in terms of "disruption." (Beginning to think for myself! Gotta be a good sign!) I also try to relate the minors to their corresponding major per number, which would have 5s associated with Le Pape. This is an association I don't particularly comprehend...how is Le Pape related to crisis or disruption or any such thing? I thought perhaps I was still relating to Waite's meanings but Hadar's site say roughly the same things for Le Pape...moral responsibility, authority, dealing with society's conventions. Which certainly CAN cause disruptions, but most of the other associations are much more obvious to me...

Thanks!

I tend to think of the 5's as breaking out of the stability of the 4's, so possible meanings are uncertainty, a new direction, movement, change, unpredictability. The way I tie it in with Le Pape is to think of transition and a bridge to the sixes.

Le Pape is often thought of as a bridge as he joins the earthly with the spiritual.

~

I think that's my ultimate problem: I see Le Pape as stability. Like he should be a 4...of course so should L'Empereur..so there should be two 4s!!!

Jewel-ry said:

I tend to think of the 5's as breaking out of the stability of the 4's, so possible meanings are uncertainty, a new direction, movement, change, unpredictability. The way I tie it in with Le Pape is to think of transition and a bridge to the sixes.

Le Pape is often thought of as a bridge as he joins the earthly with the spiritual.

~

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One of the traditional titles of the Pope is "Pontifex Maximus" - the "Supreme Bridge-builder". This is an old Roman title for the president of the college of Pontiffs, priests in charge of public cult and legislation. The Bishop of Rome inherited the title and role.

Why were the priests called "bridgebuilders"? I don't know. But the suggestion of bridging earthly and spiritual sounds right.

An earlier thread in another area of the Forums is titled Studying Non-Scenic Pips - Fives - a thread well worth also referring to.

Five can also at times be seen as the generative influx following the stability of the four. It is also the first number which generates perpetual motion as points equidistant upon a sphere.

As the number of the pentagramme, it also depicts the pantalpha, denominated the number of health and healing. As pentagramme, it also depicts numerous aspects of sacred geometry and the ratio of Phi.

Finally, it indicates too the number of the Rose...

As I personally do not generally make a connection between the fives in the pips and the fifth Atout, I leave it to comments already made and also refer to the two threads on, firstly, V le Pape, and secondly, the card title as 'Le Pape' for further details.

Is what you guys mean about this "bridge" concept (which I can understand that, just not quite how it relates to the 5s UNLESS that this is the point where the Decade is in flux, caught between the material and divine?

Shalott said:

I see Le Pape as stability. Like he should be a 4...of course so should L'Empereur

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For me, this is the crux of the issue and the root of Le Pape's association with bridge-building. He is the earthly representative of ultimate spiritual authority, invested with both heavenly and material value by an institution (the Church and, by extension, other codified religious structures) dealing with the practical application of spiritual law to material affairs. In this way, Le Pape is the bridge between one octave of authority and another: he is God's Emperor on earth. The function of Le Pape as a bridge is to mediate the two worlds, interpreted as archetypal reflections of one another.

Because God is inherently mysterious, there is introduced into our lives an element of instability and uncertainty as we struggle with the divine will, interpreted, wielded, enforced and embodied by the Le Pape. Many have seen the fifth trump as a feminine figure (La Papesse), adding another layer of complexity to the issue of the bridging function, since the feminine mediates the appearance of physical life on earth, in addition to representing Le Pape's intellectual fecundity.

I am out of my depth with regard to the history and numerological aspects of the Marseille deck, and what I have said above principally reflects the way I understand the Hierophant (an aspect, as I understand it -- or even a degradation -- of Le Pape). With that understanding, perhaps in the pip-5's we witness both the literal and figurative encounter with the inscrutable Divine Will in human experience, perceived at times as unstable through our separation from the source; hence, the possible numerological reference to the fifth trump, Le Pape, as a figure who delineates and enforces the will of God on our path of return -- a bridge.

Bear in mind that one of the functions of the Pope is to serve as a judge in spiritual matters. While the Emperor's concerns are in large measure temporal, concerned with the maintenance of social order for efficiency and propserity, the Pope calls to mind that these things are not the be-all and end-all of existence.

* The Pope calls to mind the unpleasant consequences of strife and ambition, and call to peace.
* The Pope represents the power that judges the heart, and must rouse those who are lost in unproductive feeling.
* The Pope condemns greed for earthly gain, and upholds the old ideal of holy poverty.
* The Pope is the judge of orthodoxy and heresy, the maintainer of the true against the false.

Astraea said:

For me, this is the crux of the issue and the root of Le Pape's association with bridge-building. He is the earthly representative of ultimate spiritual authority, invested with both heavenly and material value by an institution (the Church and, by extension, other codified religious structures) dealing with the practical application of spiritual law to material affairs. In this way, Le Pape is the bridge between one octave of authority and another: he is God's Emperor on earth. The function of Le Pape as a bridge is to mediate the two worlds, interpreted as archetypal reflections of one another.

Because God is inherently mysterious, there is introduced into our lives an element of instability and uncertainty as we struggle with the divine will, interpreted, wielded, enforced and embodied by the Le Pape. Many have seen the fifth trump as a feminine figure (La Papesse), adding another layer of complexity to the issue of the bridging function, since the feminine mediates the appearance of physical life on earth, in addition to representing Le Pape's intellectual fecundity.

I am out of my depth with regard to the history and numerological aspects of the Marseille deck, and what I have said above principally reflects the way I understand the Hierophant (an aspect, as I understand it -- or even a degradation -- of Le Pape). With that understanding, perhaps in the pip-5's we witness both the literal and figurative encounter with the inscrutable Divine Will in human experience, perceived at times as unstable through our separation from the source; hence, the possible numerological reference to the fifth trump, Le Pape, as a figure who delineates and enforces the will of God on our path of return -- a bridge.

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Ahh...starting to become clear. One thought I had today was that, perhaps the material stability, established by L'Imperatrice and 'LEmpereur, is disrupted by Le Pape, ergo 'disruption.'

Shalott said:

One thought I had today was that, perhaps the material stability, established by L'Imperatrice and 'LEmpereur, is disrupted by Le Pape, ergo 'disruption.'

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Yes...just when we think we know how things work, BAM! Back to the drawing board. The synergy between ourselves and our circumstances can lead to spiritual breakthrough, or uncomplicated annoyance over disturbance of the status quo. In that sense, Le Pape is as much a ladder as a bridge, representing a whole spectrum of potential response to change and challenge -- and the judgements and consequences associated with them, as Ihoyc points out.