possible clue to the hotel-dieu/maison-dieu question

Now that I just made the mistake of calling the Maison-Dieu card the Hotel-Dieu card, I got interested in what the difference was. I had a vague memory from living in Northern France that the maison-dieu was more like a poorhouse, while the hotel-dieu was a hospital, with that name originating back when all that could really be offered to the seriously ill poor was a bed and some religious comfort. A little research later I stumbled on this, about the Hotel-Dieu de Corbie:

"L'un de ces religieux, au titre d'hôtelier (hospitarius), avait le soin des pauvres étrangers, sains et malades ; l'autre nommé aumônier (elecmosinariua) avait charge des pauvres malades résidant dans cet asile et de ceux domiciliés dans le pays et qui ne pouvaient y avoir place à cause de l'encombrement."

translation: One of these religious (i.e. monks), with the title of hosteller (hospitarius), had the care of poor foreigners [or outsiders], healthy and sick; the other, called almoner (elecmosinariua) was in charge of the sick poor living in this asylum [sanctuary] and those residing in the country [locale] and who could not live there because of overcrowding.

It appears from this that both a maison-dieu and an hotel-dieu could exist at the same time, attached to the same abbey.

http://www.ch-corbie.fr/html/body_les_origines.htm


Now what all this has to do with why the card is called the maison-dieu, I have no idea.

An important reference by Roxanne Flornoy:
Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Major Arcana titles: La Maison-Diev
(scroll down to find her letter)

Yes, I saw that. But the Corbie site seems to give a clue to the difference between the two, and that they could co-exist.

Corbie site Maison Dieu references:

thanks, sarahbellum. does this help...

Les origines de l'Hôpital

In 1232, Marguerite Creté gave to the House God of Corbie quatre journaux de terre to the Renalin Cross. In compensation, the brothers freed from said and of serfdom a journaux de terre which belonged to the donatrice and which was struck said to the profit of the Hospital.

In 1262, main Jean de Canaus gave to the House God a journaux de terre in the condition which it would be paid to his niece, its lasting life, a wheat half-muid per annum.

It may be worth noting that France was virtually littered with 'poor/hostel' and 'hospital' houses during late mediaeval times.

The explanation linked (as above) wonderfully illustrates also that there was not only a social need for these hostels, but that these were well established, 'controlled', and part of the social fabric.

What is of course interesting is that here we also have a sense that a particular person was also in charge of, effectively, itinerant visitors (whether pilgrims or other is not relevant here), and that, consequently, the residents of Amiens would perhaps likewise expect similar hospitality when travelling to places further afield.

It may also be worth noting that whenever an outbreak of plague or equivalent infected a township, it became effectively quarantined. Those who therefore could escape the quarantine would seek hospice in surrounding townships and cities - and essentially use the hospitality system in place.

How does this relate to the depiction of La Maison Diev? Perhaps, again, instead of seeking to find the defining limits of its name (which is also, of course, highly instructive and interesting), it is also in its iconography that its essence unveils itself.

...and of course, often the tallest structures with its spires, 'Houses of God' - or rather churches, may indeed often be the first buildings to be struct by lightning in a region. Yet here we have not spire, but apparent tower. Its iconography and title are incongruous, unless seen with perhaps alternative eyes.

It's occurred to me is that it may be no coincidence the Le Maison Dieu follows directly after a card whose earliest name on the ur-Marseille might have been something like Le Deuil. During that early perod when the English and French languages were much closer together "deuil" was the English spelling for the character we see on atout XV. And of course both Dieu and Devil are versions of the Indo-European word "deva." What if the original title of the early atout XVI had been "Devil's House" and the image was of his house being destroyed as the next necessary step in the Fool's journey? With a largely illiterate population, and transmission of the card names from one card maker to another being largely verbal, could someone have confused the Maison-Deuil with the maison-dieu so familiar at the time so that the name became changed and the original meaning of atout XVI lost?

This sounds so fanciful, is so speculative, and depends so much on my shaky understanding of linguistics that I hesitate to post an idea likely to be easily shot down. But I'll never know if it's silly or not unless I put it forward; it's certainly not the siliest idea I've ever had. What do those better able to evaluate it than I am think?

It coincides precisely with my own view - originally suggested by Gettings - that here is the fall of a Minaret: in mediaeval eyes, a house (amongst others) of the Devil, as opposed to a Church as the House of God.

The Amiens Cathedral depiction fuses, in many ways, this depiction and a pseudo-infancy Gospel: Amiens XVI.

It may be worthwhile revisiting the 'main' thread on XVI - La Maison Dieu...

Vision

Letter 16: Ayin eye, fountain

Tarot Jaques Vieville XVI (La Maison Dieu)

The relationship between "eye" in Hebrew
and "sheep" in Aramaic, can be understood
as the eye of the sheep continuously looking
towards its shepherd, and the eye of the
shepherd always watching over his sheep.

Rabbi Y. Ginsburgh

fyreflye said:

It's occurred to me is that it may be no coincidence the Le Maison Dieu follows directly after a card whose earliest name on the ur-Marseille might have been something like Le Deuil. During that early perod when the English and French languages were much closer together "deuil" was the English spelling for the character we see on atout XV. And of course both Dieu and Devil are versions of the Indo-European word "deva."

Click to expand...

Le Diable represents the Greek word διαβολος, which was borrowed into Latin as diabolus; it originally meant something like "the slanderer".

OTOH, deuil is French for "mourning."

The shape of the tree on the Vieville card made me think of runes; "ice" and "hail" are two of the less favourable runes in that system, which in its current form is much younger than Tarot, but still.

jmd:

It coincides precisely with my own view - originally suggested by Gettings -

Click to expand...

Yes, undoubtedly I read this both in Gettings and in your posts on the "Maison-dieu" thread and parked it somewhere in the back of my mind, only to see it re-emerge as "my" idea. When you get to be my age you'll understand how that can happen I'm happy to cede credit for the theory to someone better qualified to defend it than I.

ihcoyc:

OTOH, deuil is French for "mourning."

Click to expand...

Yes, I know what the word means in contemporary French. But what did it, or a word spelled or even pronounced similarly, mean seven or eight hundred years ago? This is a question for scholarship.