Tarocco Di Marsiglia (Svizzera 1804)

I know this deck has been discussed before, but it just arrived in the mail and I have fallen in love with it.

The Tarot of Marseilles (Swiss) is published as a limited edition by Il Meneghello. It is an 1804 deck by Jean Proche, as indicated unusually on the Devil and Strength cards. The Chariot has his initials JP.

There is something about the choice of colors in this deck that sets it apart from others that I own.. I love the dark, rich hues.

The prints themselves are very interesting, with a wonderful mix of detail and harshness.

There are cards in it that are clearly related to the Tarot of Besancon, but there are also cards that don't seem to be, it might be a big mix of several different styles, and some cards are very interesting indeed.

The most obvious one to me, (at just a first glance) is the Hanged Man, which is strikingly similar to the Hanged Man from the Catelin Geofroy deck made in Lyon in 1557.

Here is a comparison:
http://www.tarothistory.com/images/lependu.jpg

Another interesting detail is that most of the figures have heels on the shoes, and what looks like stocking straps(???) on there leggings. This detail is on most of the Trumps, and the Court cards as well:
http://www.tarothistory.com/images/proche.jpg

I'm going to study the deck now, but just wanted to share this deck with those who don't know it, and hope to hear from those lucky enough to have picked up a copy already.

best,
robert

Ah! Delighted to hear...

A favorite of mine. On onr hand, humor and delicacy in some of the eye expressions, profile views and line quality...on the other hand, there's some very unusual either distortions or perhaps unique bits...

The Cavallier De Coupe is actually the Knight of Pentacles--that's the mis-titled card. I don't know if it's the deck or the reproduction?

By the way, I'm changing my note to reflect the title of the misprint above and asking if others with the deck like the finish.

I like the cards enough to use it as my 'Marseilles' when reading a text that uses the Marseilles...although I understand the Hanged Man in profile, etc., is a Swiss variation...usually I'm looking at a book with Grimaud's black and white examples, so I just enjoy my variation...

Best wishes,

Cerulean

Seeing the 2 of Coins so carefully...

you'll see the erased(?) inscription should have read;
"FAIT PAR JACQUE ROCHIAS A NEUCHATEL"

The logotype "JR" in the 4 of Coins stands for "Jacque(s) Rochias".
So this deck should be an ancestor of those by Gassmann and
Muller ("Tarot Classic").

Thank you both for the additional information!

Cerulean, I like the finish of this deck very much, if that is what you're asking. It seems to have just the perfect amount of protection while leaving a very flexible card feel to it.

Kenji, your comment on the creator is especially interesting, I noticed the other initials on a card (was it the 4 or 5 of coins?, don't have the deck beside me now).

I had guessed that Jean Proche may have been a late issuer of the deck by the strange way his name seems to have been added, but brushed it aside when I saw the Chariot initial. Do we have a date for Jacque(s) Rochias?

Any additional info about the deck and it's creator is greatly appreciated. I really like this deck an awful lot and think the similarities to early decks is worth some investigation.

Also, I'm assuming by looking at Trionfi.com that the Gassmann is an incomplete deck and no reproduction of it has been made?

best,
robert

I got a copy due to Mari and Diana's comments and it is one of my favorite for the same reasons that Robert mentions. I prefer the Il Meneghello edition and I too like the finish; it is a kind of semi-matte finish that has held up very well.

As I've been doing my IDS with the Vieville I've taken to comparing it with the Hadar, Fournier, and the Svizzera 1804 - and I've fallen in love with the Svizzera! I was going to start a new thread about it, but decided to revive this one.

My card of the day today was the Emperor, and the Svizzera Emperor is unique in several ways - first - that scepter! It's the most overdone, decorative wand-like thing I've seen. There is also no orb with the cross, as in other TdMs. Also, the eagle on his shield is flying, versus the other TdMs, where the eagle is standing with folded wings. He also has an extreme "Roman" nose - truly an Italianate Emperor.

I have the Meneghello edition (I'm not sure if there are any others), and it comes in a sturdy box with a lift-off lid and a wax seal. The card size/shape is also great for smaller hands - the cards are 2 3/8 x 4 1/2, much easier for me to shuffle than the taller and narrower Vieville.

Are there any other fans of the Svizzera 1804 out there?

Thanks for bumping this old thread sravana, its made me look at the deck again. I am confused about the dating of this deck.

The addition of 1804 on the Two of Coins could have been added at any time as was (it appears) Jean Proche's name.

The Gassmann's I find in Kaplan are:

François Gassmann - 1792 - c 1870
"JR" J Gassmann - 1776 - c 1825

So are we saying that the JR (Jacques Rochias) of the deck could be "JR" J Gassmann?

According to Kaplan (vII) (Jacques) Claude Rochias of Neuchâtel 1753-1823 was responsible for animal tarocks made around the end of the 18th c.

Also according to Kaplan (vII) there is a Jacques Rochias (son) of Nauchâtel late 18c. No other details of him so I guess the date is the only one available for him.

Moonbow* said:

Thanks for bumping this old thread sravana, its made me look at the deck again. I am confused about the dating of this deck.

The addition of 1804 on the Two of Coins could have been added at any time as was (it appears) Jean Proche's name.

The Gassmann's I find in Kaplan are:

François Gassmann - 1792 - c 1870
"JR" J Gassmann - 1776 - c 1825

So are we saying that the JR (Jacques Rochias) of the deck could be "JR" J Gassmann?

According to Kaplan (vII) (Jacques) Claude Rochias of Neuchâtel 1753-1823 was responsible for animal tarocks made around the end of the 18th c.

Also according to Kaplan (vII) there is a Jacques Rochias (son) of Nauchâtel late 18c. No other details of him so I guess the date is the only one available for him.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm absolutely no help to you there. I don't even have Kaplan v. II at this time!

I peered at that 2 Deniers, and for the life of me I can't see what Kenji is referring to above... is there a different version for this deck, besides the Meneghello one? There is no way to get the Neuchatel name from my copy.

Frankly, I'm more interested in this deck because I find the colors and art so evocative - and fun. I just noticed that my copy of the Death card has a definite reversed imprint of the Pape in the background - You can see his scepter with the triple cross on the left, and the curve of his arm on the right.

I wish that tarot manufacturers of historic reproduction decks would give us more info on where the original is, etc. My copy has the usual Meneghello pamphlet in English, which is of no use to me.

sravana said:

Frankly, I'm more interested in this deck because I find the colors and art so evocative - and fun. I just noticed that my copy of the Death card has a definite reversed imprint of the Pape in the background - You can see his scepter with the triple cross on the left, and the curve of his arm on the right.

Click to expand...

I like this deck too. I've sold off a lot of my Meneghello reproductions but I'm holding on to this one. As you say, the colors are great. It's also one of the few Meneghello decks that's laminated. That of itself makes it unusual.

Quite a few of the trumps have reversed images to one degree or another. It looks to me like wet sheets were stacked on each other after the lines were printed. It's hard to say what happened exactly but it appears to be a simple case of sloppiness at the workshop.

I agree, lots of quirks of this deck, including the imprints on it, which I assume may be simply a fault in the printing, but still makes it an interesting deck. For me, I am also concerned with the deck itself and not just the colours of it. I would like to know more about Kenji's idea's of it, and anyone else's.