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The Four Worlds/The Four Suits - the Order

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Thanks GTC. I'm thinking of purchasing the Holy Light.

Thanks for the link, rachelcat. Very interesting material.
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GnosticTarotCards  GnosticTarotCards is offline
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Thats still not accurate, The astrology goes as follows

1. Magus - Aleph 2. High Priestess - Bet 3. Empress - Gimel 4. Emperor - Dalet 5. Hierophant - He 6. Lovers - Vav 7. Chariot - Zayin 8. Justice -Chet 9. Hermit - Teth 10. Wheel of Fortune - Yud 11. Force/Strength - Kaf 12. Hanged Man - Lamed 13. Death - Mem 14. Temperance - Nun 15. Devil - Samekh 16. Tower - Ayin 17. Star - Peh 18. Moon - Tzaddi 19. The Sun - Kuf 20. Judgement - Resh 21 . The World - Shin 22. The Fool = Tav

Astrological Attributions
Fool - The Sun
Magician - Air
High Preistess - Moon
Empress - Venus
Emperor - Jupiter
Hierophant - Aries
Lovers - Taurus
The Chariot - Gemini
Justice - Cancer
Hermit - Leo
Wheel of Fortune - Virgo
Force/Strength - Mars
Hanged Man - Libra
Death - Water
Temperance - Scorpio
Devil - Sagittarius
Tower - Capricorn
Star - Mercury
Moon - Aquarius
Sun - Pisces
Judgement - Saturn
World - Fire
Top   #42
treedog  treedog is offline
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another new old idea challenged


Hmm... I see that in recent and past history practitioners, adepts and orders have made various connections to the Tree of Life of the Qabalah with attributes and values such as elements, planetary influences, major trumps and more. Okay.

But this conversation is shaking up my little newbie mind. A big question for me right now is: Are the assignments and postions of the Hebrew letters (Aleph, Beth, Gimmel, etc.) on the Tree of Life values that can changed? Is the ToL available for re-structuring in that way?

With my Sun in Gemini I can be somewhat flexible but since Tarot is so new to me I'm sounding the depths to see where the solid stones are in this river. I like foundation (it helps me rebel).

treedog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachelcat View Post
i hope it's not too much (from both tech and copyright angles), but i wanted to post the attached for the folks in this thread.

. .
thankyou!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
Hmm... I see that in recent and past history practitioners, adepts and orders have made various connections to the Tree of Life of the Kabbalah with attributes and values such as elements, planetary influences, major trumps and more. Okay.
Yep ... the system I was outlining above is so changed I call it A tree of Life . It works for me and the specific things I am linking together. 'Standard concepts', were the background - good to get a firm foundation in them first. In whatever system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
But this conversation is shaking up my little newbie mind.
It's the 'in whatever system' thing; a firm foundation in the ground work of A system first.

This thread section is general kabbalah & alphabets, so it can be complex, have debates about origins, differences between western hermetic kabbalah and other types, modifications, etc.

If you start with one type, say the G.D. / Thoth version then Kabbalistic questions and discussions about THAT are in those threads but the 'ground' is relatively stable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
A big question for me right now is: Are the assignments and positions of the Hebrew letters (Aleph, Beth, Gimmel, etc.) on the Tree of Life values that can changed? Is the ToL available for re-structuring in that way?
It appears so ... some do it. I do it but I donít try to restructure the ( or a ) Tree of Life. Some donít accept changes . Most say itís best to learn one system first to get the basics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
With my Sun in Gemini
The sign or the constellation ? ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
I can be somewhat flexible but since Tarot is so new to me I'm sounding the depths to see where the solid stones are in this river. I like foundation (it helps me rebel).
Solid stones? Hmmm ... the shape and frame work of the Tree, the triangular repetitive shapes, the paths, the Kabbalistic concepts that bought that about, the ideas behind manifestation as 'reflective' triangles and also as the 'lightening flash' ... and much more ...

there are concepts like the 'cube of space', you could find ideas that are basic and continued through the tradition, and they might be solid . But as far as variations that came about as the Tree of Life developed they are more fluid ... actually I have seen old diagrams of ToL that look nothing like the ones used today.

It depends if you quest is for general Kabbalistic knowledge, then the study should start at the earliest source ... to get the basics of the concepts ... that formed the variations .

If you want to know more about kabbalah to help you with a specific tarot deck then use the correspondences of that deck and study the ToL and cards with those correspondences.
Top   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
But this conversation is shaking up my little newbie mind. A big question for me right now is: Are the assignments and postions of the Hebrew letters (Aleph, Beth, Gimmel, etc.) on the Tree of Life values that can changed? Is the ToL available for re-structuring in that way?
treedog
Yes. And no. It is a fascinating intellectual exercise, and one occultists did anyway, but not something I do, not having enough understanding of all the balances involved. The Kircher Tree used by the GD has the advantage of being relatively simple to read (in essence, it's all there in front of you) and somehow "makes sense" and provides a unified whole. It is an excellent sharpening stone for the mind. You can find more than ample flexibility for your Gemini sensibilities on it, enough to last a lifetime.

You could of course make up your own Tree, but as a relative beginner like yourself I would prefer to understand the existing one better since even at this stage, it does make so much sense. To each his own, but keep in mind the attributions aren't flexible as in "haphazard," but have a lot of thought behind them, as evidenced by the entire GD corpus.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treedog View Post
Hmm... I see that in recent and past history practitioners, adepts and orders have made various connections to the Tree of Life of the Qabalah with attributes and values such as elements, planetary influences, major trumps and more. Okay.

But this conversation is shaking up my little newbie mind. A big question for me right now is: Are the assignments and postions of the Hebrew letters (Aleph, Beth, Gimmel, etc.) on the Tree of Life values that can changed? Is the ToL available for re-structuring in that way?

With my Sun in Gemini I can be somewhat flexible but since Tarot is so new to me I'm sounding the depths to see where the solid stones are in this river. I like foundation (it helps me rebel).

treedog
The attributions of the Hebrew letters in different versions of the Sefer Yetzirah (SY) are consistent in the following sense. The 3 Mothers always refer to the same Elements. The 12 Simples always refer to the same Signs. The 7 Doubles are always the seven classical Planets, but the assignments of individual letters may vary between different versions of the SY. For example, the letter Gimel may be Mars, Jupiter, or Sun, depending on the version. In the version used by the Golden Dawn (GD), Gimel is the Moon.

The assignments of the Hebrew letters to the connecting paths on the ToL are different in different systems. GnosticTarotCards advocates the 3-7-12 arrangement. The GD assignments are not as geometrically elegant, but they work beautifully with the GD Hebrew letter attributions of the Major Arcana, provided the historic order of Justice and Strength are interchanged. Although the ToL positions may vary from one system to another, there is an internal consistency which must be considered, so the positions are by no means arbitrary.

As I may have stated before, the GD system is probably the most familiar among esoteric Tarot users (along with the slight Thoth variant, with which it is not necessary to be concerned yet).
Top   #47
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Re: Sefer Yetzira attributions, there are some references in posts 11 & 13 in the following thread (up to and including Kircher, and the relative modern redaction of the Gra which has become the form most generally followed in modern Judaic kabbalah and one also used in a few modern non-GD/Crowley tarot decks) :

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...=171264&page=2
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treedog, I'm trying to come at these issues from your perspective, emphasizing the invariants, but I guess it is impossible to stem the tide of what may appear to be information overload. My only advice, as a fellow beginner, would be to learn the GD system as a useful platform from which to investigate the variants, since it is the most relevant to your interest in the Crowley Thoth and RWS.
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I agree with LRichard - stick with one system as a beginner, and the GD derived systems are most known/popular and have most readily available and accessible resources. But just be aware there are variant systems that you may come across - each has its strengths / weaknesses; and none is necessarily any more 'true' or 'authentic' than the other.
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