Vincent
I am not a Thelemite, and no offense was taken, by me, at least. I pointed it out only in reference to you claiming that there was no antagonism in your posts.jmd said:Vincent, as a member of various initiatic orders, my reference to 'having given the due signs and passwords' was to be taken in the light-hearted jest intended - but my apologies to you should you be a 'Thelemite' that was offended by the reference... made, in any case, far more lightly than any pronouncements against Waite Crowley has made.
It might be that a (admittedly thin-skinned) Thelemite might find the tone of 'light-hearted jest' is exactly the problem. Some Masonic lodges now allow the initiate to swear their oath on the Book of the Law. If you change what you said slightly to "Catholics dully repeating their Hail Marys", or "Muslims dully bowing to Mecca, you may get an idea of what I meant.
Unless, of course, he is mistaken, which would prove the point very nicely.jmd said:The esoteric and occult significance of the Marseille is not, in my personal view, something that has been 'later' imposed on the deck itself - though this too has indeed occured (starting from De Gebelin). The difficulties we generally face are those brought forward by Le Pendu: recognising what it is that binds the whole together.
In this, I personally consider that Mark Filipas has perhaps, by looking at the deck for its own sake, unveiled an overall pattern that may very well have played into the very overall structure of the Marseille (and Tarot in general, hence my earlier comments about its proximity to the Ür-Tarot).
I have read Alphabetic Masquerade, and also the criticisms of it. I don't suppose this is the place to critique it, but you must acknowledge that it is by no means incontrovertible proof, or even proof of anything, except a need for further investigation.
I would be delighted if such proof could be found, but I think there is a very good reason that it hasn't.
What interesting times we would live in if such a connection could be proved. What ingenuity might we see from people desperately trying to reconcile the pop-Tarot notion of the Fool's Journey with the AlephBet?jmd said:To further comment on Le Pendu's contribution, I also wonder whether there in fact needs to be an overall story. Perhaps, if something like the AlefBeit forms part of the underpinning overall pattern, it becomes self-sufficient. Each Atouts, of course, then becomes a beginning point for allegorically rich journeys in their own right.
Vincent