The Visconti - and the Marseilles

Vincent

jmd said:
Vincent, as a member of various initiatic orders, my reference to 'having given the due signs and passwords' was to be taken in the light-hearted jest intended - but my apologies to you should you be a 'Thelemite' that was offended by the reference... made, in any case, far more lightly than any pronouncements against Waite Crowley has made.
I am not a Thelemite, and no offense was taken, by me, at least. I pointed it out only in reference to you claiming that there was no antagonism in your posts.

It might be that a (admittedly thin-skinned) Thelemite might find the tone of 'light-hearted jest' is exactly the problem. Some Masonic lodges now allow the initiate to swear their oath on the Book of the Law. If you change what you said slightly to "Catholics dully repeating their Hail Marys", or "Muslims dully bowing to Mecca, you may get an idea of what I meant.
jmd said:
The esoteric and occult significance of the Marseille is not, in my personal view, something that has been 'later' imposed on the deck itself - though this too has indeed occured (starting from De Gebelin). The difficulties we generally face are those brought forward by Le Pendu: recognising what it is that binds the whole together.

In this, I personally consider that Mark Filipas has perhaps, by looking at the deck for its own sake, unveiled an overall pattern that may very well have played into the very overall structure of the Marseille (and Tarot in general, hence my earlier comments about its proximity to the Ür-Tarot).
Unless, of course, he is mistaken, which would prove the point very nicely.

I have read Alphabetic Masquerade, and also the criticisms of it. I don't suppose this is the place to critique it, but you must acknowledge that it is by no means incontrovertible proof, or even proof of anything, except a need for further investigation.

I would be delighted if such proof could be found, but I think there is a very good reason that it hasn't.
jmd said:
To further comment on Le Pendu's contribution, I also wonder whether there in fact needs to be an overall story. Perhaps, if something like the AlefBeit forms part of the underpinning overall pattern, it becomes self-sufficient. Each Atouts, of course, then becomes a beginning point for allegorically rich journeys in their own right.
What interesting times we would live in if such a connection could be proved. What ingenuity might we see from people desperately trying to reconcile the pop-Tarot notion of the Fool's Journey with the AlephBet?



Vincent
 

jmd

There are a number of reasons why I introduced the term 'Ür-Tarot' - but essentially to be able to refer to its un-manifest impulse not from some time past, but rather as the spiritual archetypal impulse embedding itself is the creation of various Tarot decks via the artistic creative means of designing artists and craftspeople.

Yet, still looking at the various renditions, one may very well reflect as to what of the given decks is Tarot, and what are additions to Tarot. In that sense, I personally consider that the Sola Busca influenced imagery in the pips of the WCS-type decks are non-Tarot additions. Of course, if someone considers that the Sola Busca is itself a Tarot, then we shall simply disagree.

With regards to the Visconti, a number of elements preclude it from, in my personal opinion, being a close reflection of the Ür-Tarot. The first and foremost is the likelihood that it does not comprise the requisite number of images in its Atouts (ie, 14, expanded to 20). This is not to necessarily deny that it could even have been influential, and be one of the highly important influences, on the later emergence of Tarot (if one tends to view the Visconti as historically earlier, which current historical finds suggest).

Nonetheless, the Visconti decks, however beautiful and significant they may indeed be, are not Tarot, any more than the Sola Busca, or the Mantegna decks.

With reference to whether Mark Filipas's work is erroneous or not, this would not 'prove' any point other than Mark Filipas is erroneous.

Tarot has many strands and influences that weaves itself into the small filaments extending themselves from the roots of the foundation of the Tarot tree.

My personal current view is that a number of pre-Tarot-emergent influences weave themselves into what we finally recognise as Tarot. Of these, the various religious and cultural expulsions and repressions during the 3 centuries prior to the first instance in which we have found the word 'Taraux' speak of various needs to be careful as to what was then outwardly presented, and what its possible genuine uses were.

The reference I gave in another post as to the crypto-Jewish usage of cards and 'gaming' on the Sabbat in order to still be able to relay the various important reflections without arousing suspicion may have been part of what was at play.

It is also interesting that even the Tarocchi in Italy emerges only following (and not long after) that great Jewish exodus from Spanish lands in 1492. Of course, it was not only towards Italy and the adjacent franco-italian islands towards which the exodus took place, but also in existing crypto-communities in which were relatives in the Provence, Burgundy, Lyon, and Languedoc general areas...

I realise that I may have in some ways moved away from the principal discussion of the Visconti and the Marseille - yet my previous paragraph may also hint at other discussions that have taken place on Aeclectic (and of course elsewhere).

Let's perhaps look at one possibility - and of course no historical materials, to my knowledge, yet do this full justice, even if there is some circumstantial partial evidence.

What would a community that considered its own culture of high importance do in order to be able to pass on the same - in terms of its language, its allegories, and its regulations - to its younger members without risking life? one means is precisely what evidence has already uncovered: Crypto-Jews played cards on the Sabat, and told, in reality, stories.

Another is how to teach not only words, but have a means of recalling and remembering both the AlefBeit and important Hebrew words. Here is where Mark Filipas's uncovering of a correlation becomes highly important. Could he be incorrect? I suspect that as it is my claim, which is far stronger than his, for Hebrew inclusion into the Marseille, and into the Atouts's increase to twenty-two (and therefore into making the deck a Tarot) deck, it is I who may be incorrect - Mark only points to there being a significant number of words seemingly reflected in the imagery.

...but why include, then, the pips and courts? initially, perhaps for no other reason than for the appearance of a game. But even then its internal structure becomes important material for exegesis!

The Visconti does not contain the same proportion of cards - though I do not doubt in the least that its allegorical elements is also of high and significant importance. Neither do other decks - though they too include numerous, esoteric, and allegorically rich elements (and I of course include the WCS and the Mantegna, amongst numerous others, in this wonderful richness).

The Boierdo poem, and other decks that perhaps (as is argued by some) even arise prior to the Marseille, also incorporate important elements, and contribute to further reflections of important significance for understanding more deeply Tarot. As reflections of an Ür-Tarot, however, in what ways to any other deck come as close?
 

Rusty Neon

jmd said:
With regards to the Visconti, a number of elements preclude it from, in my personal opinion, being a close reflection of the Ür-Tarot. The first and foremost is the likelihood that it does not comprise the requisite number of images in its Atouts (ie, 14, expanded to 20). This is not to necessarily deny that it could even have been influential, and be one of the highly important influences, on the later emergence of Tarot (if one tends to view the Visconti as historically earlier, which current historical finds suggest).

The Visconti-Sforza was a commissioned deck. An artist, if he wishes the work (or wishes repeat business), follows the explicit or implied dictates of his commission. It may well be that were 21 atouts and the Fool prevalent at that time in tarot decks but that the artist, pursuant to his commission, omitted two atouts from the Visconti-Sforza. Thus, the Visconti-Sforza would have had the impulse of tarot, notwithstanding that the final work was not presented to the client with the two trumps in question.

Or perhaps those two atouts were prepared by the artist but they were put aside by those to whom the deck was presented.

jmd said:
My personal current view is that a number of pre-Tarot-emergent influences weave themselves into what we finally recognise as Tarot.

Or it may be that the Tarot had several varieties and variations, thus accounting for differences as between different patterns of Tarot de Marseille decks and as between Tarot de Marseilles decks and other tarots of its time. Thus, although there are differences between Marseilles decks and those other tarots, those other tarots are still legitimate expressions of the essence of tarot.
 

jmd

For clarity's sake, the commissioned Visconti appears to only have had fourteen (not twenty) Atouts, the other six possibly being additions from a later artist - or so have argued a number of other researchers. Of course it is indeed possible that the artist has in fact been influenced or copied from an earlier pattern (as some may realise I have also mentioned before within these very Forums).

Part of the determinations we need to make are whether the variety of decks and similar representations of the times (and later) are Tarot, or rather tarot-influenced (or influencing). This is not, of course, to in any manner diminish their own intrinsic worth as non-tarot should that be what they are.

It does, in so many ways, bring us back to that important consideration as to what Tarot is - and that other important term, what is
to Tarot.
 

le pendu

I have to agree with Rusty Neon about the Visconti decks, especially if we are talking about the Sforza. The remarkable thing about the deck is that so many of the cards survived, but that shouldn't mean the missing cards didn't exist at all. I think it just as likely that the deck started out as a "standard" deck 78 card as it is that is was not.. we simply do not know for sure.

It *is* possible that early on several cards were lost and had to be replaced by another artist, and through the centuries 3 cards were lost.

IF indeed there were contemporary TdM decks, none have survived, so we can be thankful that the Visconti cards were considered pieces of art, worthy of holding on to even if the decks were incomplete.

The good folks at Trionfi have suggested a theory that explains how the Sforza *may have* evolved, but it is only a theory. Frankly, I find the combination of the 14 majors they suggest as original just as mismatched as the 22 in the standard deck. I have stated my support for the possibility of a 14 major deck, but that is because my gut tells me that there was once a set of trumps containing only the 7 virtues and 7 vices, not because I think the Sforza is an example of a 14 card deck.

JMD, with all due respect, (and frankly, I feel a lot is due.. hee hee) It bothers me to hear the Visconti Sforza classified as "Not Tarot". The FACT is that we have a nearly complete (75 card) deck dating probably from the mid 1400s, Italy. I wonder, if the 3 missing cards were found, would you still say it was "Not Tarot"? I suspect you would. I understand you doubt the origin of Tarot is 15th Century Italy, but until someone can prove otherwise, we have to accept that the earliest decks in existance all point to a creation at that time and place. If anything, the Ur Tarot IS the Visconti decks, and the TdM is several generations of evolution later. I would LOVE to have evidence to the contrary, but I just can't find it. Can you?

robert
 

Rusty Neon

jmd,

From the LWB to the US Games Visconti-Sforza, I understand that the extant Visconti-Sforza deck lacks 4 cards: i.e., 2 major arcana (Devil and Tower) and 2 minor arcana cards (Three of Swords and Knight of Coins).

Is anyone suggesting that the deck was created without those two minor arcana cards? I would think that most people would suggest that the deck was created with those two cards but that they somehow went missing somewhere along the way.

Now, as for those two major arcana cards, why can't it be plausible that they, like the two minor arcana cards, were part of the original deck but somehow went missing somewhere along the way?
 

le pendu

Sorry.. 4.

Exactly.

robert
 

felicityk

Rusty Neon said:
Now, as for those two major arcana cards, why can't it be plausible that they, like the two minor arcana cards, were part of the original deck but somehow went missing somewhere along the way?
It seems to me very unlikely because there have been many sets of Visconti cards found, more or less complete, and not one of those sets has a Devil or Tower card. If they had been part of the original deck, odds are that they would have shown up somewhere among the many incomplete decks.

Felicity
 

Rusty Neon

felicityk said:
It seems to me very unlikely because there have been many sets of Visconti cards found, more or less complete, and not one of those sets has a Devil or Tower card. If they had been part of the original deck, odds are that they would have shown up somewhere among the many incomplete decks.

Felicity

.... unless they had been part of the deck when presented to the commissioning patron but subsequently set aside.

As noted in my post #123 above, the artist's commission may have expressly or implicitly required no Devil or Tower card to be produced with the deck. However, this doesn't mean that there was no tarot tradition at that time with all 22 majors; the deck presented to the patron was simply a politically-correct deck. :) Notwithstanding this, the artist, imbued with the tradition of the tarot, painted a tarot deck.
 

le pendu

felicityk said:
It seems to me very unlikely because there have been many sets of Visconti cards found, more or less complete, and not one of those sets has a Devil or Tower card. If they had been part of the original deck, odds are that they would have shown up somewhere among the many incomplete decks.

Felicity

Out of the 15 Visconti decks listed in Kaplan's Encyclopedia, Volumn II, we have only 1 Moon card, and it's in the Sforza. If it had been lost in the collection with the other 4 cards then we would have to assume there was never a Moon card, yet we have 4 Star and 3 Sun cards.

There are only 2 Magicians. 2 Hermits. 2 Hanged Man. 2 Knight of Coins out of the 15 decks. I think it just as likely that the Devil and Tower cards existed as it is that they did not. It is completely possible that they were lost, especially as they have such negative connotations they might have been pulled from the decks on purpose at a later time.