Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?

Fulgour

Though it seems now that almost every book denies
that the Gypsies were the origin and source of Tarot,
I am beginning to believe that~they alone created it.

The smug dismissal of such a rich possibility is clear
in a much vaunted Tarot History Information Sheet:

There is no evidence that the Rom (gypsies)
used tarot cards until the 20th century.

Excuse me? That's like saying American Blacks
copied their Rock'n'Roll from Elvis Presley!

So... Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?

~Fulgour
(Peregrine Sojourner)
 

Fulgour

Fulgour said:
Excuse me? That's like saying American Blacks
copied their Rock'n'Roll from Elvis Presley!
Click to expand...
By this I mean to say, Gypsies and Tarot are Traditional,
and the overblown fuss in 18th & 19th Century books is
mostly so silly that it still doesn't make sense to anybody.
 

Rogan

I think this could turn into a difficult discussion...
To be called a gypsy in many european cultures is an absolute insult to breeding and personal worth... Are you referring to The Roma?
 

MikeTheAltarboy

Are you saying that they invented the *cards*, or that they invented reading them? I think it's pretty well established that the people of Ferrara, Bologna, and elsewhere were playing Tarot before the Roma reached Europe...
 

Grizabella

I don't think they invented the cards, but I do suspect it was the Gypsies who started reading them for fortunetelling.
 

Rosanne

Little bits and peices stay in my mind about the Rom. Their language is thought to be based on Indian and they went from India to Europe in the about 1000 AD? Those Rom said they came from little 'Egypt' hence the name Gypsy? They have been persucuted throughout their European life especially in the middle ages and the Holocaust years. Because of my interest in poetry I know one undisputed fact. A polish Rom called Bronislawa Wajs was a poetess in the 1950's and her name to the Rom was 'Papusza' which was Sinti/ Romani word for Doll. Very close to Papessa I thought an Le papessa is certainly a 'doll' of an archetype. I believe they used cartomancy so in my mind that would be the 56 Cards we in tarot call the minors- where did the mamaluk(sp?) cards come from? ~Rosanne
 

sharpchick

Rosanne said:
Little bits and peices stay in my mind about the Rom. Their language is thought to be based on Indian and they went from India to Europe in the about 1000 AD? Those Rom said they came from little 'Egypt' hence the name Gypsy? They have been persucuted throughout their European life especially in the middle ages and the Holocaust years. Because of my interest in poetry I know one undisputed fact. A polish Rom called Bronislawa Wajs was a poetess in the 1950's and her name to the Rom was 'Papusza' which was Sinti/ Romani word for Doll. Very close to Papessa I thought an Le papessa is certainly a 'doll' of an archetype. I believe they used cartomancy so in my mind that would be the 56 Cards we in tarot call the minors- where did the mamaluk(sp?) cards come from? ~Rosanne
Click to expand...

Raymond Buckland presents the same theory as Rosanne - he says that refugees from all over India, driven from their homeland by armies of Greeks, Scythians and Kushites (and later, the Huns and Mohameddans) in the 10th century. By the 14th century, they were established in Crete, Serbia, Peloponnesus, Corfu and Walachia.

The Indian refugees were nomadic and as Rosanne pointed out, were thought to be Eyptians by natives of the countries where they had settled. Buckland also says that as with other tarot decks, the first Rom decks were handpainted, and were made for personal use rather than to sell. He got his idea for the Buckland Romani deck from a deck of cards his grandmother used - an old poker deck for the Minors, and handmade trumps.
 

doreen

Egyptians

I believe the tarot may have its origins in ancient egypt and I believe ancient egyptian travellers were called gypsies ie is a sort of nickname for egyptian. At the moment I am inclined to go with this but that can change, thats the mystery of Tarot , no one really knows.
Doreen
 

Lee

I don't think Fulgour seriously believes that the Rom invented tarot. I think he's just having fun with us, once again, and that his post should be taken in that light.

-- Lee
 

Emily

I've always kept an open mind of where they might have originated but I lean towards decks being created for the card game Taroc (sp?) and then being adapted for fortune-telling.

My Nan's Nan was a Romany and she used to use a regular pack of playing cards - but maybe she didn't like the Marseille or Soprafino decks which would have been the only ones available to her at that time.
 
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