Grizabella
I'm of that descent, so I know about calling ourselves American Indian. I just wondered why you thought the culture had been lost hundreds of years ago.
Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?
Fulgour
My imagined view (my fantasy history) is that for thousandsLyric said:
of years there were millions of people here in 'America' and
they lived a rich and varied life, full of wonders & hardships.
They flourished in a way we will never know, cannot know,
which began to be torn apart with the arrival of Europeans.
Imagine the cataclysmic upheavals throughout the continent
within groups however far distant even from direct contact.
Just the disease factor would have caused ripples of disruption
at every level, with people struggling to maintain their identity
and survive~the harshest reality of all. So, Lyric, I don't know.
northsea
Interesting musings, but I thought this thread's about East Indians.
Fulgour
Timeline: Tarot
"Indians" (In Deus)
It's a little known fact that Columbus did not think
he had reached India at all, and that he wrote of
the natives in 'America' as being In Deus: Of God.
Meaning that he didn't know who they could be,
but he did believe they were in the hands of God.
Now, back to the (what's the right word?) Gypsies.
Given that we know there is more we don't know
than we do know, what we do know is suspect...
Tarot cards spread throughout Europe as if by magic
and centuries pass before any books on them appear.
We are in just as good a position as anyone to imagine
what happened and how ~ with one of the very most
puzzling things being ~ how is it they survived at all?
"Indians" (In Deus)
It's a little known fact that Columbus did not think
he had reached India at all, and that he wrote of
the natives in 'America' as being In Deus: Of God.
Meaning that he didn't know who they could be,
but he did believe they were in the hands of God.
Now, back to the (what's the right word?) Gypsies.
Given that we know there is more we don't know
than we do know, what we do know is suspect...
Tarot cards spread throughout Europe as if by magic
and centuries pass before any books on them appear.
We are in just as good a position as anyone to imagine
what happened and how ~ with one of the very most
puzzling things being ~ how is it they survived at all?
Cerulean
Hello there, I might be with you if we broadened it a bit...
"...(Cerulean omits tarot)...cards spread throughout Europe as if by magic
and centuries pass before any books on them appear.
We are in just as good a position as anyone to imagine
what happened and how ~ with one of the very most
puzzling things being ~ how is it they survived at all?"
Sorry if my head's in a tiny corner of the room.
A lively and most interesting truthful example might be--if you allowed it to be thought of as 'playing' or 'cards' as a whole---in my little brain, I'm turning it around to "the delight of gambling games spread throughout Europe as if by magic and centuries pass before any books..."
My oft-repeated example is stumbling in memory upon Hana-Fuda, a variation of Portugese playing card games that went underground and popped back into circulation...in Asia. Although now, the association with gambling has made it not a family pastime, from what I've been gathering...still it was delightful to hear of an example of a European gambling game restricted to one port (Nagasaki) survived so long even on the fringes of the Japanese culture. By Victorian times, people who saw the card games might have marvelled and observed by sight and slight knowledge how "like" this Asian card game might have been to European card games... and assumed that this could be a Symbolist example of playing cards being a universal bent.
But I realize for discussion, this is probably far beyond your original question of Romany or Rom and the tarot...my only other contribution could be related to one of the analogies mentioned? Once I found a link to articles of how playing cards fascinated some of the native peoples when they encountered Europeans and there were some variations of gambling games that resulted, with unique art and methods of play.
I do thank you for the opportunity to stretch my imagination, but not certain I'm contributing in the way you wish for this discussion?
Cerulean
Perhaps they might
"...(Cerulean omits tarot)...cards spread throughout Europe as if by magic
and centuries pass before any books on them appear.
We are in just as good a position as anyone to imagine
what happened and how ~ with one of the very most
puzzling things being ~ how is it they survived at all?"
Sorry if my head's in a tiny corner of the room.
A lively and most interesting truthful example might be--if you allowed it to be thought of as 'playing' or 'cards' as a whole---in my little brain, I'm turning it around to "the delight of gambling games spread throughout Europe as if by magic and centuries pass before any books..."
My oft-repeated example is stumbling in memory upon Hana-Fuda, a variation of Portugese playing card games that went underground and popped back into circulation...in Asia. Although now, the association with gambling has made it not a family pastime, from what I've been gathering...still it was delightful to hear of an example of a European gambling game restricted to one port (Nagasaki) survived so long even on the fringes of the Japanese culture. By Victorian times, people who saw the card games might have marvelled and observed by sight and slight knowledge how "like" this Asian card game might have been to European card games... and assumed that this could be a Symbolist example of playing cards being a universal bent.
But I realize for discussion, this is probably far beyond your original question of Romany or Rom and the tarot...my only other contribution could be related to one of the analogies mentioned? Once I found a link to articles of how playing cards fascinated some of the native peoples when they encountered Europeans and there were some variations of gambling games that resulted, with unique art and methods of play.
I do thank you for the opportunity to stretch my imagination, but not certain I'm contributing in the way you wish for this discussion?
Cerulean
Perhaps they might
northsea
Cerulean said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Cerulean, enlightening as usual.
Sienna
I have nothing to contribute to this post as regards to the origin of the Tarot and Gypsies... except my own personal experience.
I am from Romany descent... my mother was born in a wood in the middle of the New Forest in England just before World War II, her people lived in compounds which were large stands of trees which provided shelter, they were too poor for caravans and lived under canvas.
They were eventually re-housed by the local authorities (in some cases forced to move).
Well for many years my mother has been ashamed of her background, and her origins were swept under the carpet, I was not taught any traditional songs, or any of the language. My mother has a large family I have second cousins I have never met. I have always lived in a house and I come from a middle class home.
Well I ramble, but I just thought I would give you an idea of my background, what is interesting and this is my point:- There are three of my cousins on my mother's side and they all use the Tarot! again they have had similar upbringings to mine and their mothers (my mother's sisters) equally have been very closed mouthed about their origins. Is it just a co-incidence that three of us use the the Tarot? I suspect others in my family also use it, and then are the second cousins I have never met...
I am from Romany descent... my mother was born in a wood in the middle of the New Forest in England just before World War II, her people lived in compounds which were large stands of trees which provided shelter, they were too poor for caravans and lived under canvas.
They were eventually re-housed by the local authorities (in some cases forced to move).
Well for many years my mother has been ashamed of her background, and her origins were swept under the carpet, I was not taught any traditional songs, or any of the language. My mother has a large family I have second cousins I have never met. I have always lived in a house and I come from a middle class home.
Well I ramble, but I just thought I would give you an idea of my background, what is interesting and this is my point:- There are three of my cousins on my mother's side and they all use the Tarot! again they have had similar upbringings to mine and their mothers (my mother's sisters) equally have been very closed mouthed about their origins. Is it just a co-incidence that three of us use the the Tarot? I suspect others in my family also use it, and then are the second cousins I have never met...
Fulgour
“Good Luck & Good Health”
Thank you, Sienna
“baxt hai satimos tiri patragi”
*
I also wanted to post this ~ 1735 says the review.
And remember, widespread printing was once new.
Square of Sevens: A Rare 18th Century Work
of Genuine Gypsy Card Reading
by Robert Antrobus
Book Description
Originally published about 1735, this scarce work (only a few copies of a later edition are known to survive) reveals an authentic Gypsy Card Reading System. Contents: Preparing the Square; The Parallelogram; Summarizing the Aspect; Reading; Hearts; Clubs; Diamonds; Spades, and much more! Prefatory note by E. Irenaeus Stevenson.
Paperback: 108 pages
Publisher: Kessinger Publishing (March 1, 1997)
Language: English
ISBN: 1564594661
Thank you, Sienna
“baxt hai satimos tiri patragi”
*
I also wanted to post this ~ 1735 says the review.
And remember, widespread printing was once new.
Square of Sevens: A Rare 18th Century Work
of Genuine Gypsy Card Reading
by Robert Antrobus
Book Description
Originally published about 1735, this scarce work (only a few copies of a later edition are known to survive) reveals an authentic Gypsy Card Reading System. Contents: Preparing the Square; The Parallelogram; Summarizing the Aspect; Reading; Hearts; Clubs; Diamonds; Spades, and much more! Prefatory note by E. Irenaeus Stevenson.
Paperback: 108 pages
Publisher: Kessinger Publishing (March 1, 1997)
Language: English
ISBN: 1564594661
Tarotphelia
Sienna said:
Very interesting ! I wonder if any of your mother's family knew Sybil Leek ? She was from the same area and writes of living with the gypsies for a time and loving it.
Cerulean
Gypsies of New Forest....
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/CAMILLE.html
Would they have used a Rider Waite? Or Marseilles...or playing cards....if they did use cards as well as astrology?
Regards,
Cerulean
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dragon9/CAMILLE.html
Would they have used a Rider Waite? Or Marseilles...or playing cards....if they did use cards as well as astrology?
Regards,
Cerulean
