Old English - some thoughts

OK, I overspoke when I mentioned this deck in another thread, so if anyone's interested in hearing my thoughts and sharing your own on the adorable deck, here we go :

The majors seem to be inspired by older decks, although still not too far from RWS, they don't have nearly as much esoteric symbolism, which I don't think makes them inferior at all. The way their faces and especially eyes are drawn looks more Marseilles-esque...they didn't have eye cream back then I suppose!

The minors: this is where the deck seems split between RWS and Marseilles, and not just because the drawings themselves are partially pipped and partially illustrated: I like this conecpt, because it throws both schools a bone, the inconsistency comes from the fact that MOST of the illustrations match the RWS school, while some don't. However, I misspoke when I said it was HALF. Not even close. It's just the Suit of Cups, and then not even half of them: the Court cards aren't really lacking (except for those who really like the fish in the RWS Page of Cups)...
10 of Cups: I can see the contentment in the little person playing the harp.
9 of Cups: the little guy with the drum is totally celebrating.
8 of Cups: he brought a drum, but then decided to play some old-typey wind instrument. OK, I get it.
7 of Cups: a little guy with a drum, and a little guy with a lute. Not seeing anything like indecision, or the stress that may accompany it...
6 of Cups: a woman with outstretched arms holding bells...not indicative of anything realted to the 6 of cups as I know it...
5 of Cups:two of the five cups are falling away from their alignment, and a guy is beating another guy's drums...probably the best one of the suit.
4 of cups: a guy playing two pipes...
3 of cups: a woman playing a tambourine...I can see that maybe she's beckoning ppl (or you the reader or querant) to a party...but it's not blatantly obvious when compared to the other pips
2 of cups: I can kinda see that maybe the guy with the lute is seranading a lover, but again, not too obvious because it's not very different from the others
Ace of Cups: overflowing with grapes, grapes could be wine not yet made, signifying beginnings as Aces do.

I know some deck creators do come to this site, if only to read what serious (most of the time LOL) students are saying...is Maggie Kneen out there somewhere? Oh, if only she'd redo the few pips here that don't seem to signify much - or explain how they do - how that would rock!!!

I am interested in any and all insights on this deck, however. I love it so much I just want to understand these seeming inconsistencies!

Thank y'all in advance!

Greetings Shalott ~

I really love this deck too, although I have not used it for a while. The art work overall is beautiful.

I very much enjoyed your decription of the small drawings on the cups. The art work on the other minors is pretty good as well.

Do you read a lot with the deck? It took me a while to get used to reading with it.

Many blessings,

Moongold

I agree with you completely Shalott. I think it is a unique idea, both with it's use of Marseille-like symbolism (male and female pages!) and the little vignettes to help identify the minors. Some of these latter's ideas (8 of Swords - Prisoner in reach of the cell door key!) are quite wonderful IMO.

Indeed, shame about the CUPS suite! I think this is one of the few decks, where I would almost (sic) PAY for these to be redone. Was M.K. not given sufficient time? <sigh> My only other *minor* gripe is the High Priestess - Didn't she just BEG to be one of those Abessess of history - As a beautiful, but youngish <wink> Nun? (But all the ladies are, indeed striking - particularly Temperance!) The High Priestess is, after all, awfully like the Queen of Swords at the moment...

Were it THAT perfect, I think I would use this deck in preference to most (perhaps all) other "historical" ones. There are also so few decks patterned on this period of history which was indeed the repository of so much beautiful imagery...

Macavity

Hi,
I don't read with this as much as I'd like to, because of the minor flaws in the minors LOL, but I, too, would be glad to re-buy the ENTIRE deck if those few minors were redone. Also a couple in the suit of Batons, the two and three: the two shows a guy with 2 yoked horses ploughing a field, and the 3 has the 3 bunnies...cute but the bunnies aren't really doing anything related to the card, that I can tell.

The swords were really well done, showing I think what all the minors should be like...Coins almost as well. Personally I prefer "Coins" to "Pentacles," as I think it relates to the theme of the cards better, or more obviously.

The HP does look like a Queen! When ordering the deck I almost put her in the wrong stack!

Maybe that's the case. maybe she did the swords first and then the publisher rushed her along...sigh...it used to be about the cards....

Illuminated manuscript source?

Has anyone reference the illuminated manuscript pattern that the booklet mentioned? I used to have the deck, but gave it away. It was lovely, and I do remember that it was rather cheerful as well.

Joan Bunning's review samples and mention of the manuscript:

http://www.learntarot.com/oedesc.htm

Pictures:

http://www.wicce.com/oldenglish.jpg

I am not certain, but believe Joan Cole posted a collection of Maggie Kneen's links

http://www.advancenet.net/~jscole/tarotpostmodnr.htm

Mari H.

Thanks for the links!

Did some late night research on some......

of the instruments.....here are a few symbologies I have found.....

Ten of Cups.
In Norse lands it was with the harp that the gods or their messengers played a tune, which irresistibly lulled it’s hearers to sleep and occasionally risked ushering them into the Beyond. The harp links Heaven with Earth. The harp would symbolize the tensions between carnal instincts, embodied in the wooden frame ant the cat-gut strings, and the spiritual aspirations, embodied in the vibrations of those same strings. The latter were only tuneful if they proceeded from a well-controlled tension between all the individual’s drives that ordered dynamism itself symbolizing balanced personality wand self-mastery. The sound of the harp symbolizes the quest for happiness, of which human beings know only the fragile assurances of this world.

Nine of Cups
The drumbeat is associated with the utterance of the primal SOUND, with the beginning of manifestation and more generally with the rhythm of the universe.
In Laos ritual drumming called down the blessing of Heaven in the shape of beneficent rain. Similarly, African drums summon the down-pouring of heavenly favors.
Drums were the voices of the tutelary powers from which the riches of the soil sprang. As with Ares and Mars in Greek and Roman tradition, the drum was attributed to the war-god Indra, who is simultaneously the tutelary god of harvests.

Eight of Cups
I couldn’t find much here, except a number of references to stories similar to the pied piper and the use of pipe music to lure listeners to another place, paradise, or away from their current state.

I love this deck, and I do agree that some of the minors should be redone. I want to thank you all because so far your informations have helped me understand the deck better.

Some more information

Hi folks,

In June 2002 I posted a request for information about the Old English and later found something on another web site which might be of interest to you.

Here is a quote from this post:

Hello Friends,

I was given some more very helpful information about the Old English Tarot on another web site which will most likely be of interest to those of you here who are interested in this deck. Many thanks to Christine!

"Hello Moongold!

There seems to be no separate book besides the LWB which comes in the box with the cards, but you can ask your library to get ahold of the book _Mirror In Parchment_, which is about the Lutrell manuscript where Maggie Kneen got her inspiration.

This book also can be purchased at Amazon, either singly or as a
collection with another book about the life and times of the peasants living around an English manor in the 1200's, which is the provenance of this manuscript.

There is a great chapter in _Mirror in Parchment_ about how the clerics who were translating the Bible made up all kinds of little demons and elemental beings, the product of their fertile imaginations as they excised the sense from the antique Greek and Latin to be cut-and-fitted into Old English. One can see these little demons outside the formal margins of each page, and in some places on the Old English Tarot Kneen has carried them over to the cards. It is very revealing to realize that at this time in Europe, there was a very strong suspician that images were
inherantly magical, and of course we know they believed that words were too. I got the feeling that these translators felt themselves wrestling with the *living sense* of the Holy Word, and then trying to fit letters and syllables back onto the divine Ideas in the "modern tongue" of Old English, which had not even become a standardized language yet. No wonder
they imagined that the word-snippets which got lost in the translation would wiggle towards each other at the margins of the pages and hook up in amusing or bizarre ways!


I got a lot of mileage out of the book even though it does not talk about Tarot at all. You would get a *much* better sense of what you are looking
at in the deck, especially if you sprung for the 2-book set at Amazon. This is not ~ just ~ a beautiful piece of art!

I hope that helps --


Moongold

WOW

Basically, I really missed something, the images in the deck aren't inconsistent, I just don't know what they mean!

They have one for $34.50 and one for like $87 on Amazon...but they don't really say what the difference is..I assume the lesss expensive on is only one volume? Hmm...there's another book about the Luttrell Psalter by Janet Backhouse...a little more reasonably priced...I'd assume that would also be helpful, any more insight than I have now.

Both are on my wishlist there now, so next time I have some $ laying around LOL!

Thanks a heap!

(Update: Oh, I get it. "Mirror in Parchment" and this book by Janet Backhouse are sold together on Amazon...DUH...Thanks for all the help!)