Alternate Systems of Correspondence?

Richard

.......I just like to have something a little less arbitrary in understanding the underlying structures of ideas that give the cards their meanings to begin with.
One might be justified in claiming that Levi's correlations of the trumps with the Hebrew alphabet is arbitrary, but I fail to see the arbitrariness in the GD's system. First of all, the double letter zodiacal attributions failed for trumps 8 and 11, so the GD interchanged Strength and Justice. The amazing thing is that all the other doubles match up quite well. Another problem was with the planetary attributions of the simple letters. Since different versions of the Sepher Yetzirah are not in agreement on this, the GD apparently felt justified in being creative with the simples.

It is logically elegant to correlate the mothers, doubles, and simples with the orientations of the paths, in which case one might as well use the Gra, which has more symmetry than the Kircher. However, this ultimately creates more problems than it solves.

Try as I may, I can't understand how the GD system is arbitrary. Creative yes, but arbitrary?
 

Zephyros

As for me, I like the Kircher tree, but would have liked to see a better attribution for the Mothers, instead of seeming haphazard (one diagonal and two vertical). However, as you said, this would cause even more problems. It may not be pretty, but it's pretty good.
 

conversus

It is logically elegant to correlate the mothers, doubles, and simples with the orientations of the paths, in which case one might as well use the Gra, which has more symmetry than the Kircher.

Richard:

I am just beginning to ask that sort of question. Is there an accepted correlation between the 32 path of wisdom and the pathways on the GRA tree?

Thanks for your kind indulgence in a matter beyond my ken.

CED
 

Richard

Richard:

I am just beginning to ask that sort of question. Is there an accepted correlation between the 32 path of wisdom and the pathways on the GRA tree?

Thanks for your kind indulgence in a matter beyond my ken.

CED
The most accessible source I know of is Sefer Yetzirah by Aryeh Kaplan. He prefers the Gra Tree. If there is a single most accepted correlation, it should be in this book.

There is a Tarot which is based on the Gra, but I don't know anything about his system of correlations.
 

Zephyros

The most accessible source I know of is Sefer Yetzirah by Aryeh Kaplan. He prefers the Gra Tree. If there is a single most accepted correlation, it should be in this book.

There is a Tarot which is based on the Gra, but I don't know anything about his system of correlations.

Not to mention that it is evident that the GD tried not to upset the Trump sequence that much (the accepted popular/traditional sequence), they operated within certain boundaries they had set for themselves. It is possible to sequence the Trumps any which way, with the World at number four and the Fool at 15, but that would entail a complete overhaul. With the Trumps originally being unnumbered, who can say what the right sequence is? But is this a discussion of purely theoretical Kabbalah, or its connection to Tarot?

ETA:this has actually been done, to a certain degree, at the link LRichard provided. GnosticTarotCards is a member of this forum and very knowledgeable on the subject, I hope he drops by

http://www.gnostictarotcards.com/Kabbalah.html
 

Richard

I'm too satisfied with the way Tarot has been layered onto the Kircher by the GD. Anything else upsets my world view somehow.
 

Cheiromancer

I like the idea that each individual can customize their personal symbol system. It might be in what decks they use and what meanings they ascribe to individual cards. What spreads they use, how to interpret court cards, how to handle reverses (if they are even used). Dignities, quint cards. The list goes on and on. Despite the vast number of tarot decks out there, some folks still end up making their own.

For those whose interests lie towards esoteric correspondences, I think there is less room for customization. Changes have a domino effect, and the perceived positive value of a small change is normally outweighed by the incoherence that change introduces to the system. Still, there are options beyond the system associated with the RWS deck. Mostly worked out by other people, but I am working on my own.

I think my most pressing question right now is how to map the singles of the Hebrew alphabet (Heh, Vav, Zayin, etc.) onto the signs of the zodiac. I see the letters as having only a conventional order; if mapping them onto the signs means they are jumbled, fine. But the signs of the zodiac have a natural order, given a starting point. If you start with Aries, you naturally proceed to Taurus and Gemini. Maybe you can go backwards, but you can't just jump around at random.

But if the order of the Hebrew alphabet is largely or completely set aside as accidental, I don't really know how to figure out the astrological correspondences. I have a preliminary version, but I don't recall all the reasons behind it, and some of the ones I do remember are pretty weak. I would like to do better. Any suggestions?
 

Richard

.......I think my most pressing question right now is how to map the singles of the Hebrew alphabet (Heh, Vav, Zayin, etc.) onto the signs of the zodiac. I see the letters as having only a conventional order; if mapping them onto the signs means they are jumbled, fine. But the signs of the zodiac have a natural order, given a starting point. If you start with Aries, you naturally proceed to Taurus and Gemini. Maybe you can go backwards, but you can't just jump around at random........
The GD follows the Sepher Yetzirah as closely as possible, and all known versions of the SY agree on the attributions of the mothers and simples. (The SY has a high view of the alphabet, of course.) The natural order of the simple letters and the zodiac signs are followed in the correlations, starting with Heh~Aries, Vav~Taurus, etc., until finally Qoph~Pisces. GD chose not to mess with the alphabet.

Anyhow, it works for me, and if it ain't broke, I'm not interested in fixing it. My interest in Tarot is more as an overlay to the Tree rather than fortune telling.
 

Cheiromancer

The natural order of the simple letters and the zodiac signs are followed in the correlations, starting with Heh~Aries, Vav~Taurus, etc., until finally Qoph~Pisces.

I was just reading the tarotpedia page where this is all set out in a nice way. I was hoping, though, that there was some kind of alternative approach in case someone didn't trust the traditional order of the Hebrew alphabet. I mean, if you look at how the doubles and mother letters are scattered through the alphabet, it doesn't inspire much confidence that there is a significance to the ordering.

My own attempts have been ad hoc and unsystematic.

For instance, I associate the Hierophant with the Pope, and thus with Christianity and Pisces. (The Christian era is the age of Pisces, before the age of Aquarius. Also the 'Jesus Fish') So I assigned the Hierophant to Pisces and the letter Nun (meaning "fish") to them both. GD assigns "fish" to Scorpio and Death. I agree that Scorpio is Death, but I think the serpent (Tet) is a better symbol of death (or a venomous critter) than a fish is. (By the way, and at the risk of belaboring the obvious, a religious leader can be associated with Pisces and fish for other reasons than Christian symbolism; if religion is like water, then a hierophant would be like a creature that lives entirely in water.)

There are a few other "good" associations, but they start to get rather stretched. For instance, Tsadi (the fish hook) I assigned to Strength because it is a strength-multiplier; like the ring in the nose of a bull, it lets people do more than they could bare-handed. Samekh (the prop), on the other hand, got assigned to Taurus because its round shape reminded me of the zodiacal sign. And the two I associated with the Chariot because Chariots have round wheels and a chariot maybe could be pulled by a bull. Those are kinda weak reasons!

Anyhow, it works for me, and if it ain't broke, I'm not interested in fixing it. My interest in Tarot is more as an overlay to the Tree rather than fortune telling.
I hope I am not coming across as a proselytizer. Or as condemnatory towards those who find the GD system satisfying. And surely there is value to taking things apart and seeing how else they can be put together? Even if you stay with the original arrangement, it is nice to know about alternatives, and how they do (and do not) work.
 

Richard

.......I hope I am not coming across as a proselytizer. Or as condemnatory towards those who find the GD system satisfying. And surely there is value to taking things apart and seeing how else they can be put together? Even if you stay with the original arrangement, it is nice to know about alternatives, and how they do (and do not) work.
I have tried being creative with the Tree, but without success. I hit snags when I work through the esoteric implications. I admit that there appear to be compromises here and there in the Kircher-GD Tree, but overall it has an internal consistency that my own feeble efforts lack. As you, yourself, wrote:
......For those whose interests lie towards esoteric correspondences, I think there is less room for customization. Changes have a domino effect, and the perceived positive value of a small change is normally outweighed by the incoherence that change introduces to the system........