ncefafn
If you take Neptune into consideration, there is a kickass t-square in this chart between Mars, the Sun/Moon combo, and Neptune.
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Triple Virgo
Minderwiz
Temperament
There are a number of approaches to Temperament assessment, I'll mention just two here. The first is one outlined by Dorian Greenbaum, in her book, 'Temperament, Astrology's Forgotten Key'.
This measure uses the Ascendant (by Sign element), Ascendant Ruler and the Ascendant Almuten both by their intrinsic natures. The Ascendant Almuten is the planet with the most essential dignity at the Ascendant degree. In this case the Ascendant is Virgo, which is an Earth sign and therefore Melancholic. As noted above Mercury, the ruler of the Ascendant, is also Melancholic when occidental. The Almuten of the Ascendant is also Mercury, as it is also exalted in Virgo. So all three Ascendant measures are Melancholic.
The next group of factors contributing to Temperament are related to the Moon. The first factor here is the Moon's sign, which we know is Melancholic. The sign of the Moon's ruler (Mercury) which is Libra and therefore Sanguine. Finally the Moon's phase is considered. The Moon is in it's fourth quarter which is phlegmatic.
The last factor relates to the Sun and Looks at it's 'seasonal' nature. Virgo is a Summer sign and Summer being hot is Choleric.
From Greenbaum's approach Professor X is mainly melancholic. A deliberate thinker with occasional flashes of inspiration with something of a dry wit. A good analyst and someone who succeeds by sheer effort. The downside is an excess of pessimism, which can show up as being sarcastic. Whilst not particularly ambitious, melancholics can enjoy being the power behind the throne. There's also an appreciation of hierarchy and order, though rather unfairly (to them) they are often near the bottom. They don't like people who jump to conclusions or superficiality. It's very much a think before you act and weigh the evidence.
An alternative approach to Temperament is put forward by by Oscar Hofman in his book on Classical Medicine. Hofman bases his method on a simplified version of Lilly. He takes the Ascendant in a similar way to Greenbaum (so that's melancholy again) He uses the Moon phase (phlegmatic) and season of birth (Choleric). Of these he gives more weight to the Ascendant by including the intrinsic nature of it's ruler (Mercury is Melancholic when occidental). He adds an additional factor not mentioned by Greenbaum, the Lord of the Geniture. This is basically the planet with the most dignity in the chart (both essential and accidental combined). I'd take this to be Mars, as it's got reasonable essential dignity and it's positioned in the ninth which is also favourable and is not too far from the MC. This would add an additional Choleric factor as Mars is definitely firey hot! The only other contender is Mercury in the first but it's score is lower. If Mercury was preferred we would have the same overall Melancholic temperament as Greenbaum.
If we go by Hofman we have a Melancholic/Choleric temperament. This would be similar to that on Greenbaum's scale, except that there is more fire - this person does not suffer fools gladly, has more fire and ambition and relies on fact and logic to 'win' arguments. Ambition to succeed depends on having a plan and the melancholic/choleric will have a plan.
I'll leave Professor X to comment on which if either he thinks is appropriate and readers to judge which if either matches their view of the character expressed through the posts.
The next step will be to look at 'Manners' - this is a wider field than our modern view of manners as simply how well people behave (though that element is still in the traditional stance). We are looking at the whole way that the person reacts with the outside world, starting with the way that they think.
There are a number of approaches to Temperament assessment, I'll mention just two here. The first is one outlined by Dorian Greenbaum, in her book, 'Temperament, Astrology's Forgotten Key'.
This measure uses the Ascendant (by Sign element), Ascendant Ruler and the Ascendant Almuten both by their intrinsic natures. The Ascendant Almuten is the planet with the most essential dignity at the Ascendant degree. In this case the Ascendant is Virgo, which is an Earth sign and therefore Melancholic. As noted above Mercury, the ruler of the Ascendant, is also Melancholic when occidental. The Almuten of the Ascendant is also Mercury, as it is also exalted in Virgo. So all three Ascendant measures are Melancholic.
The next group of factors contributing to Temperament are related to the Moon. The first factor here is the Moon's sign, which we know is Melancholic. The sign of the Moon's ruler (Mercury) which is Libra and therefore Sanguine. Finally the Moon's phase is considered. The Moon is in it's fourth quarter which is phlegmatic.
The last factor relates to the Sun and Looks at it's 'seasonal' nature. Virgo is a Summer sign and Summer being hot is Choleric.
From Greenbaum's approach Professor X is mainly melancholic. A deliberate thinker with occasional flashes of inspiration with something of a dry wit. A good analyst and someone who succeeds by sheer effort. The downside is an excess of pessimism, which can show up as being sarcastic. Whilst not particularly ambitious, melancholics can enjoy being the power behind the throne. There's also an appreciation of hierarchy and order, though rather unfairly (to them) they are often near the bottom. They don't like people who jump to conclusions or superficiality. It's very much a think before you act and weigh the evidence.
An alternative approach to Temperament is put forward by by Oscar Hofman in his book on Classical Medicine. Hofman bases his method on a simplified version of Lilly. He takes the Ascendant in a similar way to Greenbaum (so that's melancholy again) He uses the Moon phase (phlegmatic) and season of birth (Choleric). Of these he gives more weight to the Ascendant by including the intrinsic nature of it's ruler (Mercury is Melancholic when occidental). He adds an additional factor not mentioned by Greenbaum, the Lord of the Geniture. This is basically the planet with the most dignity in the chart (both essential and accidental combined). I'd take this to be Mars, as it's got reasonable essential dignity and it's positioned in the ninth which is also favourable and is not too far from the MC. This would add an additional Choleric factor as Mars is definitely firey hot! The only other contender is Mercury in the first but it's score is lower. If Mercury was preferred we would have the same overall Melancholic temperament as Greenbaum.
If we go by Hofman we have a Melancholic/Choleric temperament. This would be similar to that on Greenbaum's scale, except that there is more fire - this person does not suffer fools gladly, has more fire and ambition and relies on fact and logic to 'win' arguments. Ambition to succeed depends on having a plan and the melancholic/choleric will have a plan.
I'll leave Professor X to comment on which if either he thinks is appropriate and readers to judge which if either matches their view of the character expressed through the posts.
The next step will be to look at 'Manners' - this is a wider field than our modern view of manners as simply how well people behave (though that element is still in the traditional stance). We are looking at the whole way that the person reacts with the outside world, starting with the way that they think.
Professor X
ncefafn said:If you take Neptune into consideration, there is a kickass t-square in this chart between Mars, the Sun/Moon combo, and Neptune.
Explain more on this please ncefafn.
I am reading what Minderwarz has put up so far I am impressed.
His approach is different from the approach I learned to do my own chart.
I will post my final thoughts on it all once he is done.
Note: I thought that if the Sun/Moon were within six degrees they were cojunct to each other?
ncefafn
It's pretty complex for me -- I'm just an amateur. I'd like everything I say to be vetted by Minderwiz and Dadsnook (Dave).
Mars oppose Neptune itself is a difficult aspect. Mars is direct and forceful, it wants to act and act now. Neptune diffuses everything, so when the fiery nature of Mars hits Neptune's water, all you get is steam. Your drive seems to dissipate at the most inopportune moments. It's like being on the freeway, going 70 mph, and running out of gas.
Mars squaring your Sun and Moon gives you a hot temper, one that comes in fits and bursts. It indicates a certain degree of irritability and, as Minderwiz says, gives a temperament that doesn't suffer fools gladly.
The Sun and Moon, along with the Ascendant, are the prime indicators -- as I understand it -- of personality. They are how you express yourself. With Neptune squaring them, your ability to get yourself across to others clearly is negatively impacted. People don't see you clearly, or don't see you in the same light that you view yourself.
These are just my ramblings, and as I said, I'm just an amateur. Thank you for sharing your chart details with us.
Mars oppose Neptune itself is a difficult aspect. Mars is direct and forceful, it wants to act and act now. Neptune diffuses everything, so when the fiery nature of Mars hits Neptune's water, all you get is steam. Your drive seems to dissipate at the most inopportune moments. It's like being on the freeway, going 70 mph, and running out of gas.
Mars squaring your Sun and Moon gives you a hot temper, one that comes in fits and bursts. It indicates a certain degree of irritability and, as Minderwiz says, gives a temperament that doesn't suffer fools gladly.
The Sun and Moon, along with the Ascendant, are the prime indicators -- as I understand it -- of personality. They are how you express yourself. With Neptune squaring them, your ability to get yourself across to others clearly is negatively impacted. People don't see you clearly, or don't see you in the same light that you view yourself.
These are just my ramblings, and as I said, I'm just an amateur. Thank you for sharing your chart details with us.
lilangel09
Professor X said:Note: I thought that if the Sun/Moon were within six degrees they were cojunct to each other?
I'm guessing that Minderwiz drew up the chart on software or drew it by hand and chose to use tighter orbs. Some people let the Sun and Moon have looser orbs (for example, you said 6). If you draw up the chart on astro.com or online, these settings would be configured automatically, which is why on some sites/programs, your Sun and Moon are conjunct. Minderwiz probably chose to only use 5 orbs or less to consider planets as conjunct.
dadsnook2000
Orbs
Orbs aren't magical nor are they exactly defined.
The easiest way to think about orbs involves two considerations, in my view:
FIRST. Consider the aspect. A CONJUNCTION can have a big orb, especially if it is the Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Perhaps 12 degrees, although some would be comfortable with 8 degrees. An OPPOSITION divides the zodiac circle by two, so perhaps half of the conjunction orb---perhaps 6 degrees. TRINES divide the circle by three, so 12 divided by 3 equals an orb of 4 degrees. Using this approach, SQUARES would have 3 degrees, SEXTILES 2 degrees and everything else 1 degree. Of course, anyone is free to use what they choose.
SECOND. Consider that planets approach, contact and then leave an exact classical aspect. so the planet is likely to show some effect several degrees away from being exact, increasing in its effect as it nears exact contact, then losing its effect as it separates from an exact aspect. There is no rigid cut-off point.
We won't get into all of the "other stuff" that capable astrologers throw into the mix of how they judge an aspect, as it all depends upon the fine points they choose to use in their interpretive work. Again, no rigid rules. Dave
Orbs aren't magical nor are they exactly defined.
The easiest way to think about orbs involves two considerations, in my view:
FIRST. Consider the aspect. A CONJUNCTION can have a big orb, especially if it is the Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Perhaps 12 degrees, although some would be comfortable with 8 degrees. An OPPOSITION divides the zodiac circle by two, so perhaps half of the conjunction orb---perhaps 6 degrees. TRINES divide the circle by three, so 12 divided by 3 equals an orb of 4 degrees. Using this approach, SQUARES would have 3 degrees, SEXTILES 2 degrees and everything else 1 degree. Of course, anyone is free to use what they choose.
SECOND. Consider that planets approach, contact and then leave an exact classical aspect. so the planet is likely to show some effect several degrees away from being exact, increasing in its effect as it nears exact contact, then losing its effect as it separates from an exact aspect. There is no rigid cut-off point.
We won't get into all of the "other stuff" that capable astrologers throw into the mix of how they judge an aspect, as it all depends upon the fine points they choose to use in their interpretive work. Again, no rigid rules. Dave
Professor X
ncefafn said:Mars squaring your Sun and Moon gives you a hot temper, one that comes in fits and bursts. It indicates a certain degree of irritability and, as Minderwiz says, gives a temperament that doesn't suffer fools gladly.
I can tell you one thing I am starting to agree with Minderwiz. I think that the real ruler of my chart is Mars. Simply because I am a triple Virgo Mercury will always have a effect on me but I think Mars is the most powerful planet in my chart.
I most certainly do have a very very hot temper than can explode when certain things happem. Thankfully those explosions rarely happen to me. Mars in Gemini also has a effect on my personality that I am just now realizing.
Since Gemini is on the midheaven it has affect on my overall personality.
Plus since it is square the Moon and Sun that just increases the energy. Mars in the Airy mental sign Gemini sometimes leaves me prone to personality shifts that constanly happen. This usually happens when I get angry at something of course.
I want to see the rest of what Minderwiz has to say.
Minderwiz
Professor X said:Explain more on this please ncefafn.
Note: I thought that if the Sun/Moon were within six degrees they were cojunct to each other?
They are - What I actually said was that neither luminary was conjunct the Ascendant, (which would have changed matters a little), not that they were not in conjunction with each other.
Astrologers used to ascribe orbs to planets, rather than aspects and the Sun and Moon have the largest orbs or moeities, as they appear the largest planets. Lilly used a separation of around 15 degrees for the Sun and Moon to enter and leave aspect, so the Sun and Moon in Professor X's chart are well within that range. As the Moon is less than 8 degrees from the Sun it is combust.
Kibeth
ncefafn said:It's pretty complex for me -- I'm just an amateur. I'd like everything I say to be vetted by Minderwiz and Dadsnook (Dave).
Mars oppose Neptune itself is a difficult aspect. Mars is direct and forceful, it wants to act and act now. Neptune diffuses everything, so when the fiery nature of Mars hits Neptune's water, all you get is steam. Your drive seems to dissipate at the most inopportune moments. It's like being on the freeway, going 70 mph, and running out of gas.
Mars squaring your Sun and Moon gives you a hot temper, one that comes in fits and bursts. It indicates a certain degree of irritability and, as Minderwiz says, gives a temperament that doesn't suffer fools gladly.
The Sun and Moon, along with the Ascendant, are the prime indicators -- as I understand it -- of personality. They are how you express yourself. With Neptune squaring them, your ability to get yourself across to others clearly is negatively impacted. People don't see you clearly, or don't see you in the same light that you view yourself.
These are just my ramblings, and as I said, I'm just an amateur. Thank you for sharing your chart details with us.
Amateur here too. Unfortunately, I've missed seeing the natal details and all I've got are Minderwiz's/ncefan's descriptions. Hard ter visualize.
Like Professor X, I also have my Mars squaring Moon(and Saturn for that matter), mine own T-square makes me cry. It can't be easy holding that natural temper in check, I understand. So, you don't see me railing at this guy as people here have done. Won't post my chart though as this is about him. =)
Minderwiz
Manners
The next stage in the traditional chart interpretation would be a consideration of the soul or manners. This is something akin to what today we would call 'personality'. The two key areas are the rational, logical mind and ability to communicate and the sensitive or irrational part of the mind.
The first step is to identify the Significator of Manners, according to Lilly we look first for planets in the first House. In the case of Professor X, we find Mercury there, so Mercury becomes our primary significator of manners. We would also consider the planets with dignity in the place of the Significator of manners (ruler and Almuten) and any planets aspecting the significator.
Following our assessment of the significator of manners we would go on to examine Mercury (the rational mind) to assess 'wit and 'understanding' and also to examine the Moon, and its relationship to Mercury, in order to assess the balance between the rational and intuitive side of personality.
So, starting with the Significator of Manners. As we have seen Mercury is weak in essential dignity but does have a strong placement in the first, is swift in motion and is occidental, both of which add more to the overall strength. Mercury on balance has positive strength but not a lot of strength. So a real capability to learn, studious, guileful and divining well but may be a bit inconsistent and, if pushed may be a little malicious.
The balance between rational and irrational mind is given by the balance of strength between Mercury and the Moon (this is true for everyone, whatever their significator of manners). Both planets are peregrine but the Moon is low in accidental dignities, being in the twelfth, combust and squared by Mars. So the rational logical mind predominates and will usually master the passions but possibly at the cost of mistrusting the 'lunar dimension' of life, either in oneself or in others. Indeed others may be seen as too dominated by their emotions or unable to think in a straight and capable way.
Mercury is swift in motion which Lilly characterises as rendering 'inconstant men but quick of apprehension, oft changing their opinions but yet will give good reason for their opinions'.
Mercury occidental gives a 'dissembler' - someone prone to be destructive of others ideas though the extent of this would be modified by Mercury's ruler - which is Venus. That might mute the tendency but as Venus is also weak and retrograde that muting might not be as gracious as we might expect.
Mercury in an air sign gives a witty nature and possibly good at languages. Mercury in the Ascendant a good capacity and wit for employment!
On the less positive side, signs of a weak mind would be Mercury peregrine and the fact that Mercury makes no contact with the Moon.
Mercury is ruled by Venus, and also Saturn and Venus are the two planets with the most dignity at Mercury's location. We need to recognise that neither of these two will add much strength to Mercury. Venus is Retrograde and in the twelfth, Saturn is in detriment, though better placed in the eleventh. Neither of these two aspects Mercury and Mercury does not aspect any other planet. This might well weaken Mercury by making it more difficult to express well.
Lilly says that when well placed or well dignified, Mercury signifies a man of subtle and political brain, intellect and cognition; an excellent disputant, logician...eloquent in speech, sharp and witty..learning almost anything without a teacher'. Very similar to Professor X's remarks at the outset.
Lilly goes on to say that when ill dignified or ill placed, Mercury signifies a troublesome wit, a kind of phrenetick man, his tongue and pen against everyman and spending his time trying nice conclusions to no purpose.
Here we have Mercury ill dignified but well placed so neither of these extremes are going to hold true.
So we have a person who has a melancholic/choleric temperament with probably above average intelligence but may be inconsistent, doesn't care much for people who express themselves in an emotional way and may be viewed by others in turn as a bit of a dissembler, rather than a constructive force.
That concludes the 'general' side of chart interpretation. The traditional chart analysis would now procede to examine the chart on a house by house basis to examine all aspects of the native's life and future. I don't have time to do that unless I'm offered and exhorbitant fee LOL.
The next stage in the traditional chart interpretation would be a consideration of the soul or manners. This is something akin to what today we would call 'personality'. The two key areas are the rational, logical mind and ability to communicate and the sensitive or irrational part of the mind.
The first step is to identify the Significator of Manners, according to Lilly we look first for planets in the first House. In the case of Professor X, we find Mercury there, so Mercury becomes our primary significator of manners. We would also consider the planets with dignity in the place of the Significator of manners (ruler and Almuten) and any planets aspecting the significator.
Following our assessment of the significator of manners we would go on to examine Mercury (the rational mind) to assess 'wit and 'understanding' and also to examine the Moon, and its relationship to Mercury, in order to assess the balance between the rational and intuitive side of personality.
So, starting with the Significator of Manners. As we have seen Mercury is weak in essential dignity but does have a strong placement in the first, is swift in motion and is occidental, both of which add more to the overall strength. Mercury on balance has positive strength but not a lot of strength. So a real capability to learn, studious, guileful and divining well but may be a bit inconsistent and, if pushed may be a little malicious.
The balance between rational and irrational mind is given by the balance of strength between Mercury and the Moon (this is true for everyone, whatever their significator of manners). Both planets are peregrine but the Moon is low in accidental dignities, being in the twelfth, combust and squared by Mars. So the rational logical mind predominates and will usually master the passions but possibly at the cost of mistrusting the 'lunar dimension' of life, either in oneself or in others. Indeed others may be seen as too dominated by their emotions or unable to think in a straight and capable way.
Mercury is swift in motion which Lilly characterises as rendering 'inconstant men but quick of apprehension, oft changing their opinions but yet will give good reason for their opinions'.
Mercury occidental gives a 'dissembler' - someone prone to be destructive of others ideas though the extent of this would be modified by Mercury's ruler - which is Venus. That might mute the tendency but as Venus is also weak and retrograde that muting might not be as gracious as we might expect.
Mercury in an air sign gives a witty nature and possibly good at languages. Mercury in the Ascendant a good capacity and wit for employment!
On the less positive side, signs of a weak mind would be Mercury peregrine and the fact that Mercury makes no contact with the Moon.
Mercury is ruled by Venus, and also Saturn and Venus are the two planets with the most dignity at Mercury's location. We need to recognise that neither of these two will add much strength to Mercury. Venus is Retrograde and in the twelfth, Saturn is in detriment, though better placed in the eleventh. Neither of these two aspects Mercury and Mercury does not aspect any other planet. This might well weaken Mercury by making it more difficult to express well.
Lilly says that when well placed or well dignified, Mercury signifies a man of subtle and political brain, intellect and cognition; an excellent disputant, logician...eloquent in speech, sharp and witty..learning almost anything without a teacher'. Very similar to Professor X's remarks at the outset.
Lilly goes on to say that when ill dignified or ill placed, Mercury signifies a troublesome wit, a kind of phrenetick man, his tongue and pen against everyman and spending his time trying nice conclusions to no purpose.
Here we have Mercury ill dignified but well placed so neither of these extremes are going to hold true.
So we have a person who has a melancholic/choleric temperament with probably above average intelligence but may be inconsistent, doesn't care much for people who express themselves in an emotional way and may be viewed by others in turn as a bit of a dissembler, rather than a constructive force.
That concludes the 'general' side of chart interpretation. The traditional chart analysis would now procede to examine the chart on a house by house basis to examine all aspects of the native's life and future. I don't have time to do that unless I'm offered and exhorbitant fee LOL.
