For Tarot Deck Creators - What is a Tarot deck? (revisited)

catlin

I am still a bit puristic about tarot decks: to me a tarot deck either has to be 22 Majors alone or 22 Majors + 56 Minors (including court cards, be the Pages called Pages or Princesses does not bother me at all). The only exception I also accept as Tarot is the DEVA tarot with its 5th suit. I also accept tarot decks with a 79th card or 80th card as long as the previously mentioned criteria are there.

What ticks me off the most are oracle decks which have nothing in common with traditional tarot and call themselves tarot to increase sales figures or whatever.
 

mythos

Major Tom said:
For me, and this is my opinion, a tarot deck is a deck of 78 cards consisting of 22 trump cards, 16 court cards and 40 pip cards. There are probably many, many exceptions that people could point to, but that only reminds me of the saying, 'the exception proves the rule'. It's my belief that there's something very important in the very structure of a tarot deck and that any variation becomes a diversion on the Royal Road.

Up until recently I would have agreed 100% with this. I'm not so sure now. I am coming slowly to the view that their are two different types of tarot decks. They are the 22 Trump, and the 78 card tarot readers deck of 22 trumps, 56 pips and 16 courts. The difference for me lies with the purpose.... I think...maybe:confused: This is new territory for me which is coming to light as I create my deck.

If the purpose is reading - though of course you can do majors only readings - a 78 card deck is preferable. Simplisitcally the three card groups could be identified as the psychospiritual, the mundane/situational and the people/cast of characters. The trumps, on the other hand, can have a whole range of tarot purposes, whether they be a map for studying the western mystery tradition - a guide for initiates?; as a jumping off point an exploration of the history of tarot and how the 22 cards came to be the accepted number and why?; a Middle Ages version of what psychology has so ineptly tried to create with theories of human developoment or personality theories.... maybe many more things.

I am finding, as I create my majors, that I am less and less inclined towards moving past them into the realm of the pips and courts. I feel that, creatively, psychologically, spiritually, the trumps are complete as a free-standing set of interweaving symbolic images. And yet, they are incomplete in the sense that after creating one set of 22 images, they ask (and have already asked) that a second set be created, and a third and fourth and so on. They seem, to me, to be an exploration into the unseen, the unconscious, other realms of existence, the inner world, the underworld, the over world ... whatever terminology you might wish to use.

Of course, I may not be talking about tarot per se here, but my own journey/relationship with tarot. I may not be touching the universals of tarot, but my own need for exploring tarot through art. I just have a sense that the pips and the courts, though of inestimable value in reading (which is not my area of interest) have been tacked-on to the 'real' tarot.... that, just maybe, the 'real' tarot's purpose is not reading.

This is not meant, in any way, to disparage the value of reading tarot cards. In fact, as my past psychology and social work supervisor once said ... "If I want help with a problem, I won't go see one of 'us', I'll go to a tarot reader." I just think that there is dual process which occurs - one that is reading related, and the other? As yet I have no word for it ... it is, currently, for me, an indefinable something - a numinous purpose I suppose. contained in the trumps. Will I feel differently if I begin working on the pips and courts? I just don't know! I just can't answer all my own questions about what tarot is, or what a tarot deck is, yet, but I find it fascinating that, until I began creating a deck, I would have wholeheartedly gone for the 78 model. Now, I am not so sure.

Thanks for reviving this question Tom. Synchroncity at work methinks:)

mythos:)
 

baba-prague

Would you regard the Minchiate as a tarot Catlin? I'm not asking that in any challenging way (I don't mind one bit if you disagree with me on that one!) but I'm curious.

Edited to add - this tarotpassages review argues that it's a member of the tarot family but not a tarot. Maybe I just like the idea of an extended tarot family... :D

http://www.tarotpassages.com/minchiate.htm
 

fall_guy

mythos said:
Up until recently I would have agreed 100% with this. I'm not so sure now. I am coming slowly to the view that their are two different types of tarot decks. They are the 22 Trump, and the 78 card tarot readers deck of 22 trumps, 56 pips and 16 courts. The difference for me lies with the purpose.... I think...maybe:confused: This is new territory for me which is coming to light as I create my deck.
...
I just have a sense that the pips and the courts, though of inestimable value in reading (which is not my area of interest) have been tacked-on to the 'real' tarot.... that, just maybe, the 'real' tarot's purpose is not reading.
I agree with this too (and I know I’m probably contradicting my earlier statement :D).

When I first got into tarot, I wondered why the deck seemed to be in two parts – the Major and Minors. And why the Minors seemed, well, rather mundane – more designed to be like playing cards. In fact, one of my earliest decks (the Tarot of the Witches) suggested that I could ignore the minors and just use them as playing cards!

I think over time (probably starting with the RWS), tarot creators and readers began putting more emphasis on the minors – particularly by giving them illustrations and trying to tie them in to the more profound and mysterious Majors. Although I like the illustrations, there’s something incongruous about literally titling a card ‘Five of Swords’ and giving it a meaningful picture (sometimes even without the 5 swords themselves!), when the whole structure of the Minors is akin to a playing card deck.

Like you say, although the courts and pips are useful for reading, they DO seem to be ‘tacked on’ (or perhaps the Majors were tacked on to them?). Perhaps they really were 2 different decks/concepts and combining the two created what we know today as a tarot deck?
 

webmuse

As far as the Majors being archetypes I understand that and accept it. Furthermore, I love Thirteen's "story" about the Majors and certainly believe that the power of these archetypes lie in their ability to visually instruct, guide, and reveal to us things we always suspected, but never knew.

At the same time, while the archetypes are far older than this, didn't the Majors of tarot originally emerge out of the pre-lenten Carnival procession? Or are you arguing that tarot didn't really really get started until the mid-late 1800s to early 1900s with mystical movement of that time? And since the fifteenth century the Majors have undergone a few minor changes.

The Western Mystery Tradition you refer to, and this question is being asked in innoncence not in challenge, does it have to do with the base archetypes or does it have more to do with the significance added to these later on?
 

mythos

webmuse said:
As far as the Majors being archetypes I understand that and accept it. Furthermore, I love Thirteen's "story" about the Majors and certainly believe that the power of these archetypes lie in their ability to visually instruct, guide, and reveal to us things we always suspected, but never knew.

At the same time, while the archetypes are far older than this, didn't the Majors of tarot originally emerge out of the pre-lenten Carnival procession? Or are you arguing that tarot didn't really really get started until the mid-late 1800s to early 1900s with mystical movement of that time? And since the fifteenth century the Majors have undergone a few minor changes.

The Western Mystery Tradition you refer to, and this question is being asked in innoncence not in challenge, does it have to do with the base archetypes or does it have more to do with the significance added to these later on?

Paul Huson theorises the pre-lenten Carnival procession as an influence ... and I would agree. I am actually placing tarot trumps beginning in mid to late 15th century. If you get an opportunity, get a copy of 'Tarot Symbolism' by Robert V O'Neill. His discussion of the syncretic combination of influences present in that period ... which includes influences like kabbalah, alchemy and so on, is fascinating, based on really solid research.

jmd's (one of the members here) Association of Tarot Studies organised a re-print of the book. It is so worth the read ... more than once. It is an amazing resource.

Hope this helps explain where I am coming from.

mythos:)
 

webmuse

Thanks Mythos! I've read Robert Wang on the Archetypes and Moakley on the pre-lenten (that book being out of print normally costs an arm and a leg, but someone got it for me for my birthday!!), but I've not heard of the others. I know superficially of tarot's connection to alchemy and some of the symbollism, but not really anything deeper . . . and the kaballah is something I am only aware of and have no specific knowledge of at all. I've been wondering what books I should pick up and read next and I appreciate you giving me a start.

Thanks!
 

Major Tom

baba-prague said:
I think the Minchiate, for example, is a tarot

You can call it tarot and in fact it has tarot in it's title but you have to use the word Minchiate so that other's will know what you're talking about. I also rather like the idea of an extended tarot family. ;)

baba-prague said:
So I'll ask the provocative question :D - does it really matter if many of us have slightly different definitions of what a "tarot" is? As long as the field is as lively as it is now, with lots of interesting and stimulating (and sometimes beautiful) decks being produced, I for one am a very happy bunny!

Uh. (thinking) Uh. No it probably doesn't matter that much if we can't agree. :p But do see my response to Catlin below.

baba-prague said:
Still, as I say, it's good that you make us all think a bit!

I see making artists involved in making tarot/oracle decks think my duty as a moderator of this board.

catlin said:
What ticks me off the most are oracle decks which have nothing in common with traditional tarot and call themselves tarot to increase sales figures or whatever.

It also annoys me - perhaps a little too much at times. :laugh:

mythos said:
I just have a sense that the pips and the courts, though of inestimable value in reading (which is not my area of interest) have been tacked-on to the 'real' tarot.... that, just maybe, the 'real' tarot's purpose is not reading.

Ooooh! Thanks for this mythos. I've totally left out the idea of just the 22 trumps also being tarot. What does everyone else think? I personally am not sure that the pips and courts were tacked on to the trumps and that they too have an underlying spiritual purpose that has nothing to do with reading.

fall-guy said:
Perhaps they really were 2 different decks/concepts and combining the two created what we know today as a tarot deck?

Perhaps they were. How would we ever know? Does make for an interesting discussion though. ;)

Webmuse - I would wish to second mytho's recommendation for Robert O'Neill's Tarot Symbolism. It can be a bit heavy going but does give a very good review of the various influences that were around at the time tarot first appeared as a deck of cards.
 

Ravenswing

once again....

First of all, I consider tarot to be a specific sub-set of oracle. I don't see a tarot vs oracle question at all.

To me, the tarot of the moment consists of:

a card which transcends all--the Fool

a group of 21 cards which reflect the element of spirit-- usually called the Major Arcana
(why 21 cards? the sacred number 3 multiplied by the sacred number 7)

a group of traditional element cards-- usually called the Minor Arcana. this group is sub-dived into 2 sets:

the first is the set of elements associated with the numbers 1- 10. 4 elements, 10 numbers, 40 cards

the second is a set of persona reflecting the set of elements associated with the set of elements. For example, the King of Cups (fire of water), the Page of Pentacles (earth of earth). 4 elements, 4 elements, 16 cards.

This is my view of the structure of tarot.



Then there's what I call ProtoTarot. ProtoTarot is an extention of Tarot.

I see its structure as:

a transcendent group of cards

an ordered group of titled cards which depict a process.

a group of suited cards which are divided into two sets

the first set is suit associated with number, the second set is suit reflected through persona.


so it goes
fly well
Raven
 

Elven

MajorTom said:
I also rather like the idea of an extended tarot family.
In reference to Babas post :)


The extended family of Tarot Card Decks much sense, I can see this 'order' emerging slowly, like the Familt Tree of Tarot :)

IMHO - I feel the Major Cards are the Tarot and that the minors were an attatchment at some stage. But that is only thought, feeling and speculation, but I then, in considering this, see the Majors order differently as well - this is one thing that has taken me a long time time to become used to - the traditional bounds - and still I have trouble remembering the order of the Major cards as this is not my 'natural' selection process for the cards. I have a problem with the word Achetype, when attatched to the Major cards. I had a real problem with putting that number 'one' on the Magician card for the Aeclectic Community Tarot Deck - I should not have, I dont see the Magician as being number one, nor any Major cards having numbers - though I do see there are elements of 'numbers' within each card - their order somehow urks me.. I had to change the title of my card to Alchemy - I could not draw the Magician - maybe I lack understanding of what Tarot actually encompasses - but I try to stick to these 'rules', when inside the 'Tarot' and what it is - it gnaws at me sometimes. If I changed the order of the Majors completely - and took away their numbers, and intergrated & transfered that numbers 'meaning' into the visual aspect of the Card - would this still be a Tarot Deck?

I hope I havent deviated from the Topic - but I too stumble about with the question.

Blessings
Elven x