The Four Worlds/The Four Suits - the Order

Karrma

Le VT

This sounds like Rochambeau of the the occult wor(l)ds
 

treedog

DuQuette says. . .

My first post; I'm totally new and probably about to make a fool of myself. Oh boy, more learning.

I must have saved Tarot for later in my life when I had a modicum of maturity and patience. In 3 months I'm hooked. Anyway...

Reading Lon Milo Duquette who, if I'm getting this right, seems to order and associate things this way:

Yod, Fire, Atziluth, Wands
He, Water, Briah, Cups
Vau, Air, Yetzirah, Swords
He, Earth, Assiah, Disks

Did I even understand the thread? And where does that place things on the Tree? Okay, what did I miss?
 

Zephyros

My first post; I'm totally new and probably about to make a fool of myself. Oh boy, more learning.

I must have saved Tarot for later in my life when I had a modicum of maturity and patience. In 3 months I'm hooked. Anyway...

Reading Lon Milo Duquette who, if I'm getting this right, seems to order and associate things this way:

Yod, Fire, Atziluth, Wands
He, Water, Briah, Cups
Vau, Air, Yetzirah, Swords
He, Earth, Assiah, Disks

Did I even understand the thread? And where does that place things on the Tree? Okay, what did I miss?

Yes, that is the traditional Golden Dawn attribution, and you did understand the thread. :)

As to the Tree, there are two main ways I know of. Tarot attributes each world to a different suit, with the Majors as the paths between the Minors, so you have four separate Trees, one on top of the other. In a sense, the Minors are more important, as they represent stages in development, while the Majors are the methods of attainment. However, Tarot places greater emphasis on the Majors as it is a learning tool, so the processes the Majors represent are more important for the user.

The Tree can also be divided internally, with Keter and Chochma in Atziluth. Binah is special in that it is a World in itself, Briah. Chesed, Gevurah, Tiphareth, Netzach, Hod and Yesod are the next world of Yetzirah and Malkuth, like Binah, stands alone in Assiah.
 

ravenest

Fire or air first ?

In regard to the sometime rearrangement of the order and putting air first I was often confused, but now I think it comes from a mix up between two systems. In the more modern ‘air’ is associated third in the hierarchy.

Air is seen as things with an ‘airy quality’ and we relate that to what we think about air – as a state of matter. Also with their relationship to the psyche, Fire (individuality, connection to spirit, inspiration, will, etc.) then water (the’ gut feeling’, ‘intuition’, the ‘hunch’, I.e. messages from non- conscious/rational perceptions of the unconscious) then air (the rational mind and analysis from the two higher levels and working out a plan or scheme to manifest it in) Earth - actually doing something about it. This concept seems to borrow ideas about the planets that are associated with air - ?

But this air concept is very different from the way the ‘ancients’ saw it; the Gnostics, the Greeks and related philosophies.

Air or Pneuma was the principle ‘above'. Consider the elements in triangular relationship; when condensing systems of 4 to 3 it is often handy to see the first 3 as a triangle (like the 3 Gunas) and the 4th as a ‘pendant’ to the triangle, or the result of that triangular relationship.
Fire and water are obvious ‘opposites’ so they go either side at the base of the triangle, the only spot left at the top is air. If you mix fire and water you get steam (air). Therefore air can contain fire and water in essence [ if 2=0 then 0=2]. So air is the primary element.

It is further explained by the word itself;
pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit

“4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.” [ http://biblesuite.com/greek/4151.htm ]

“ The pneumatics ("spiritual", from Greek πνεῦμα, "spirit") were, in gnosticism, the highest order of humans, the other two orders being psychics and hylics … In the academic study of religion and mysticism more generally, pneumatic has been used as a classification term to define similar trends in wider contexts. For example, Joseph Weiss describes "A Circle of Pneumatics in Pre-Hasidism", in the context of Jewish mysticism. Here the pneumatic group have minor prophetic powers ("Ruah Ha-qodesh" in Jewish parlance), such as revealing the sins of their fellows. However they decide to renounce use of this, probably in response to communal suspicion in the wake of the Sabbatean Kabbalistic heresy. “ [ Wikipedia.]

“ the prophetic powers such as revealing the sins of their fellows.” – Don’t like the sound of THAT one! ( Do like the idea of Sabbatean Kabbalist / unorthodox Islamic Sufism though.)

Further:
Pneumatic Equation http://gnosis.org/valentinus.htm ]
 

GnosticTarotCards

Hello ,

Im new here , but not new to this topic :) . The ethers are chemical vital reflective and the four elements. They are all related to the Physical plane, There are Cosmic Ethers that relate to the four Kabbalistic Worlds like your referring to . I prefer to assign the Cosmic Ethers and Four worlds to the suits, that way when asking the cards what influences on the subtle body are being put into motion , I can get accurate Cosmic Fire advice. Otherwise im stuck cutting off the top portion of the tree and 'assuming' that the Cosmic Ethers and Vital or Physical Etheric bodies are one in the same, they are not. Its the Cosmic Ethers that vitalize the lower physical plane ethers.

Hope thats not confusing, but if it is then maybe we can chat more :)

Tim
 

treedog

appreciation

I am so appreciative of everyone who posts here. I make tiny connections, hang on by my fingernails, then the world falls out from under me. All I can do is keep moving. I'm memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, the position of paths, staring at cards, putting books you recommend on my wish list. My dreams are changing. Thank you--I think.
 

Richard

I am so appreciative of everyone who posts here. I make tiny connections, hang on by my fingernails, then the world falls out from under me. All I can do is keep moving. I'm memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, the position of paths, staring at cards, putting books you recommend on my wish list. My dreams are changing. Thank you--I think.
There are different ways of organizing and correlating the different concepts. Try not to let that be confusing. If a certain post seems puzzling, don't hesitate to ask for clarification. I think probably a lot of us are still learning and could benefit from others' questions; I know I could.
 

treedog

What are they called and what/where are they?

This is such a pedestrian question, but since I'm barely crawling, what (in an overview) are:
Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah and Assiah? clospraplexa addressed some of this but I want you say it again, r e a l s l o w. . .

Some off topic babble: I checked out Trowler's site (Gnostic Tarot)--Oh boy. Must stick with my GD/Thoth path for now but am interested in this Continental European / English-RWS split. I will return to that investigation when I get a handle on "something!".

Also, looking at Waite's tiny booklet that comes with the RW Tarot Pack, "Key to the Tarot". Was he purposefully aloof? I have the Pictoral Key on the way. Surely he will say more.

Everyone's questions and comments are so astute. And every now and then when they line up--joy.
 

Richard

......Also, looking at Waite's tiny booklet that comes with the RW Tarot Pack, "Key to the Tarot". Was he purposefully aloof? I have the Pictoral Key on the way. Surely he will say more.......
Waite was not purposefully being aloof. He was trying to reveal as much as he could without violating certain initiatory oaths. Mary K. Greer has conjectured that his writing style is somewhat distant because he had Asperger's Syndrome. Among other things, Pictorial Key (PKT) is important for demolishing once and for all the theory of the Egyptian origin of Tarot, but don't expect the discussion of the Major Trumps to be completely satisfying. It is a must-have book, but it's important to realize that its potential for inducing frustration can be rather high.

I think that the Four Worlds concept is one of the most subtle things about Qabalah. For example, Atziluth, which is often characterized as the Supernal Triad of Kether, Chokmah, and Binah, is on the other side of the Abyss, so it is very remote for most of us. Dion Fortune, in Mystical Qabalah, does a fairly good job of explaining it, but for practical use, the concept of having four Trees, one for each World (reflected in the Suits), mentioned by closrapexa, is good. If it is too much to take, just let it go for now. We have to learn linearly, a piece at a time, but some concepts require an overall view, which can only be built up gradually, one stone at a time, as it were.

ETA. Since the Tree is a map of the individual as well as the universe, it is not quite accurate to say that the Supernal Triad is "remote". It is most certainly a part of us, but it is beyond our usual state of consciousness.
 

ravenest

This is such a pedestrian question, but since I'm barely crawling, what (in an overview) are:
Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah and Assiah? clospraplexa addressed some of this but I want you say it again, r e a l s l o w. . .

I will try a different example and try to be simple.

ATZILUTH, or the ARCHETYPAL WORLD holds the archetypal patterns, think of the DNA code (let’s not concern ourselves where it comes from or who wrote it or how it was written – for the moment – it is there and we know it is there).The DNA code (inside the nucleus of a cell) holds a pattern of information that gives instructions as to how the cells will form and grow and build up components and shapes for specific functions (depending on whether it is taste bud cell, a bone cell , etc.).

When the DNA splits inside the nucleus of a cell the coded information (in the form of messenger RNA) travels from the cell’s nucleus through the cell wall into the body of the cell itself, (which is another whole world in itself; it is like a giant industrial complex with machines, stored building materials, transport devices, roadways, etc.). This coded information coming out of the nucleus and ‘penetrating’ the realm of the outer cell is like a fertilisation process or the release of sperm and could be classified as a male energy. It is an archetypal pattern and could be attributed to ATZILUTH.

The ‘giant industrial complex’ of the outer cell is like BRIAH, the CREATIVE WORLD which is impregnated with the Will or Life (the code) – it could be classified as a female receptive energy. Within it are ‘chambers’ or assembly plants and production lines, sort of like mini-wombs within this ‘factory complex’. All the patterns, the raw materials and the infrastructure are there in this CREATIVE realm, ready to form something (after it is given directions from the RNA code).

“YETZIRAH is the FORMATIVE WORLD, the product of the previous two, where the perfected ideas having taken form, awaits a suitable material body in which to clothe them.” – Achad. In these ‘wombs’ the original pattern (from the DNA) ‘attracts’ (I am trying to be simple) building blocks, enzymes built into chains, which have to form in certain ways due to the bonding of their molecular structure. Because of the order of their assembly, copied from the pattern and the inherent structure in their form, they have to FORM and grow in a certain way (like a quartz crystal rod for example). They will grow and fold and build into a shape (e.g. like a wheel with little cogs, or a drive shaft, or components for a ‘gear box’ – literally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ4N0iSeR8U ).

This is a formative process (Yetzirah) from a creative process (Briah) ‘fertilised’ by ‘archetypal’ coded information (Atziluth) - but it is not the final product.

Then these components are taken out and transported along ‘roadways’ to assembly plants and put together to make the actual organism, this is like ASSIAH, the MATERIAL WORLD wherein all these former worlds of fine matter are assembled in a finished form or component.