Courts Body Language

Richard

(1) By the way, Pixie knew how to make an M and a W. (See attachment.)

(2) Also, the RWS Pages are usually taken to be androgynous or whatever gender you wish.

(3) I wish Waite hadn't published that deck under his self-imposed constraints. It has only caused needless controversy, which is far from what he would have wanted. The M (or W?) on the Womb of the Supernal Mother (aka the Holy Grail), who is about to become impregnated by the Dove (Holy Ghost), being only one example.
 

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Richard

......As far as esoteric content go ... this deck is a dinosaur ....
Yes, unfortunately it is a dinosaur. It is a shame, because the images are great. However, any attempt to "correct" the symbolism would now seem artificial, which is precisely why I now use the Marseille.
 

Amber Lamps

Get yer cards out ~

All the Aces are right-handed, but Fire and Water emerge from the right,
Air and Earth emerge from the left. The Pages are a unique study...

2 Knights face right, 2 left. Same with the Queens. Kings, nearly maybe.

But it is only The King of Pentacles who definitely uses his left hand when holding his definitive symbol, very nearly like The Page of Wands ~ with her left hand high upon her wand, and she being too the only Page wearing armor (helmet) ~ which connects artistically with The King of Pentacles being the only King wearing armor, his Iron Boot on his left foot.
 

Richard

It is interesting that the Emperor faces forward in the RWS, but not in the Marseille where he faces to the reader's left. This fact was noted by P.F. Case, who wondered why Waite changed the usual orientation. The Case deck (B.O.T.A.) has him facing left as in the earlier decks. I think Waite's forward facing Emperor was influenced by the similar Emperor in the Golden Dawn deck.
 

Amber Lamps

It is interesting that the Emperor faces forward in the RWS, but not in the Marseille where he faces to the reader's left. This fact was noted by P.F. Case, who wondered why Waite changed the usual orientation. The Case deck (B.O.T.A.) has him facing left as in the earlier decks. I think Waite's forward facing Emperor was influenced by the similar Emperor in the Golden Dawn deck.


Hi, and thanks!

Before I posted, I arranged the main Court Cards in a circle like the Zodiac, with Pages and Aces off to the side. Waite essentially 'announced' that he was pimping out the Courts (and the rest of the deck) for a "Directional" twist to jazz up his Celtic Method.

I've often wondered why Pamela's "courts" differed so visually from her "pips" in terms of elemental associations. Hard core Courts, wildly ambiguous Minors.

I believe Pamela's Court Cards do not reflect her true elemental attributions as regards her Minor Arcana ~ watery Swords, earthy Wands, airy Cups, fiery (yes) Pentacles.
 

Richard

Hi, and thanks!

Before I posted, I arranged the main Court Cards in a circle like the Zodiac, with Pages and Aces off to the side. Waite essentially 'announced' that he was pimping out the Courts (and the rest of the deck) for a "Directional" twist to jazz up his Celtic Method.
Actually, the Celtic Cross spread was 'discovered' by the Irish poet W.B. Yeats, with whom Waite was not on the best of terms.

I've often wondered why Pamela's "courts" differed so visually from her "pips" in terms of elemental associations. Hard core Courts, wildly ambiguous Minors.

I believe Pamela's Court Cards do not reflect her true elemental attributions as regards her Minor Arcana ~ watery Swords, earthy Wands, airy Cups, fiery (yes) Pentacles.
After some 40+ years of using the RWS, I have not noticed any anomalies with the elemental attributions. Maybe it would be best to assign "fuzzy" boundaries to the elemental associations. In real life there are no distinct boundaries. This is the basis for a holistic approach to life. Everything interacts.

Example: The Earth is experiencing global warming, yet locally this has been one of the coldest winters I can remember.
 

caridwen

Hi, i see the M Like lrichard said, maybe they didn't had that letter at the printer??!! who knows.

Now, i read on a book that the W is the W of Rider Waite. At the book says that waite choose that letter to be at that card to represent himself. I would love to remember which book i read that to post here but i can't remeber and already tried to find here at home but relly can't remeber.

At a Hajo Banzhaf book he says the M reversed means mistery or mercy, can be reached for the eprson that drinks from the cup.

I said it was an M or a W. L Richard is saying that it's a Binah.
 

caridwen

I guess not .... and its still not clear as you say you didnt say that but ....

Previous answer:

The Page of Cups is not a card of "reason,intellect and action". I did not say that about the card but am obviously not expressing that very well.

Oft quoted:

" The Page holds a chalice in his right hand which is the masculine hand and the card of reason, intellect and action."

Typo - meant "hand" explained above (see previous answer).

thats why I originally asked what you meant by that ?

Meant "hand" for previous explanation see explanation.



Is he ? I thought he was a representation of the Princesses in Book T ... but his GD oaths prevented him from naming them as such so he used the old titles as a cover (which seems to have been demonstrated aptly in these forum threads before). That makes the 4 courts actually, 2 male and 2 female ... the page is the final female energy of the suit ... YHVH .

Waite says:

A fair, pleasing, somewhat effeminate page...Fair young man, one impelled to render service...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pktcupa.htm

Ohhh ... there's no need to apologise. I did see all those obvious relationships (years ago) what I am questioning is the bits that didnt make sense to me when I read them ... like I just outlined above. Hmmm ... I thought I outlined that in my first questions?

You said that relating the Vesica to the Fish/Chalice was a bit of a stretch.

Well, thats interesting ! Soul is generated from the intersection and overlapping with spirit and body? Not that I agree, but food for thought.

Indeed.

Ummm yeah ... I already acknowledged that link with Freemasons and geometry posts back ... I dont need convincing, I already got that ... that wasnt the issue .

Well the Vesica Piscis is a pretty integral part of Freemasonary (Master Builder and all that) so since you questioned its relation to the chalice/fish imagery...

yes .... but what is all this about and how does it give significance to the card beyond what you said ... I thought your take on it; " The Message therefore is emotional which is associated with the Feminine as Water is associated with the Feminine,' was reasonable ... so whats all this 'Freemasonic' symbolism have to to with the meaning of the card ? Is it some type of Freemasonic emotional message connected to the feminine?

This is actually a really interesting question and there may be a clue here:

It is the pictures of the mind taking form.
Ibid

And random symbols associated with traditions Wait was into in relation to my questions about your take on this card means .... ?

Those 'random symbols' which are littered throughout the deck are references to Freemasonary and the Tree of Life etc

My take on the card is that it's a symbol of,
... individual intelligence proceeded and was evolved from the universal.
A reference to the soul or psyche and the chalice acts as a gateway or boundary.
 

caridwen

It is interesting that the Emperor faces forward in the RWS, but not in the Marseille where he faces to the reader's left. This fact was noted by P.F. Case, who wondered why Waite changed the usual orientation. The Case deck (B.O.T.A.) has him facing left as in the earlier decks. I think Waite's forward facing Emperor was influenced by the similar Emperor in the Golden Dawn deck.

Waite mentions this in TRUMPS MAJOR Otherwise, Greater Arcana:

3. The Empress, who is sometimes represented with full face, while her correspondence, the Emperor, is in profile. As there has been some tendency to ascribe a symbolical significance to this distinction, it seems desirable to say that it carries no inner meaning.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkt0102.htm

I also think the position of the Emperor is meant to represent a triangle. A line drawn from crown and from hand to hand is the upper part of the triangle and a reference to fire which is a symbol for Aries.

I also think that where the Majors look from left to right or straight ahead or where they point, depends on their position in the ToL. For example, if we take the first triad Fool, Magician, High Priestess and place the Magician (Kether) below the Fool (Ain Suph) and place the left upper of the HP (Chokmah) touch the right lower of the Magician, we have the Magician pointing at the Black Pillar of the HP.
 

Richard

I said it was an M or a W. L Richard is saying that it's a Binah.
Please don't misquote me. I didn't say anything about a Binah. Binah is the third Sephirah בינה. The English translation is understanding. It's personification is the Supernal Mother. The third Sephirah בינה also is the position of the second letter of the Tetragranmmaton, ה, whose element is water.