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Tree of life.Bio, Chem, Atom & Quan


I was thinking about the developments is Science since the qabalah first appeared and where these advancements figure figure on the tree.

Cellular -----Biology
Molecular---Chemisty
Atom---------Physics
sub atomic-Quantum physics.

Each one of the above openly studies magick by a different name, and as such should pose the spiritually inclined no dis-appontment. Indeed , the more 'science' opens our windows, the more profound the magick appears to be. [dna, non locality etc].

I guess we should start perhaps at 'Quarks',which at this time are seen as the fundermental building blocks of matter. Quarks are never found alone (they are held together by gluons[mysterious gluons!], if you try to split a pair, the energy involved makes 'two' new quarks, so they will reman as pairs). A pair of Quarks make up meson, a triplet of quarks makes up a baryon.

I guess we should perhaps think about where Quarks live on the tree, where do they appear? above or below the abyss?
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I may be clumsy with the terminology here because I'm not very well-read in physics, but hasn't it been proposed by physicians and metaphysicians alike that there is no fundamental particle that comprises matter - that matter is energy?

I believe this might also have something to do with string theory, and the idea that everything is a mass of submolecular vibrations, and not, as previously assumed, orbiting atomic particles.
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I'm not sure if all of these branches of science you mention stand on different ontological categories: though chemistry's questions are at a 'higher' order than sub-atomic physics, each of these deals with questions about the material plane - or the material aspects of reality.

In that sense, it may be that sub-atomic physics describes fundamental 'building blocks' (the phrase seems so inappropriate) as mere temporary energy stresses in the space-time continuum - some of which are given wonderful titles - nonetheless, they are still dealing with the furthest physicalist description of phenomenally physical manifestation. A very Assiah-like investigation, and hence Malkut.

Biology, to be sure, does move beyond this when it doesn't reduce the phenomena only to its physical qualities, for then, life itself disappears! Biology includes the study of life (the 'simplest' of which include flora). Dealing with this level, then, I tend to see this as Yetzirah-like investigation, and hence the sefirot of Netzah, Hod and Yesod.

'Higher' biological and some psychological investigations which includes 'lower order' cognitive aspects (as long as the study isn't just about measuring certain neural pathways accompanying these states - studies which, of course, remain also important), such as found in various investigations of animals and humans, I would consider Briah-ic type investigations, and hence include Da'at and the sefirot of Hesed, Geburah and Tifaret.

Only certain philosophical investigations would I place on the higher Atzilut-ic plane, which includes the sefirot of Keter, Hockmah and Binah, as well as aspects of Da'at.

Having listed these, I would of course consider that any investigation has its higher attributes, for the simple reason that we are dealing with investigations which requires the engagement of us in our Atzilut-ic plane: our own states being used are higher than those investigated (except, possibly, for those investigations within the Atzilut-ic plane).

The above remain, of course, propositions for further inquiry
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SlyR-" hasn't it been proposed by physicians and metaphysicians alike that there is no fundamental particle that comprises matter - that matter is energy? ".

..I am no expert in this area myself, but find it facinating. Quarks are not fundamental , and do seem to appear from pure energy, but whatever lies beneath quarks is so hopelessly complex and 'out-there' that it really is not clear enough to discuss without a physics expert at hand. Quarks are a good intoduction place because they are quite well studied now [Quantum Chromodynamics], and can be viewed without blowing up the brain.

The nucleus of the atom contains the most energy, a really extraordiary amount of energy. The nucleus is made from Protons and Neutrons, each of which are made by 3 quarks. The fact that it takes three makes my kabbalistic ears sit up. There is another type of particle involved in holding the nucleus together, mesons, which contain 2 quarks. The fact that you don't get single quarks alone is interesting. It means in the fundamental creation of the atomic nucleus we have....nothing representing the number 1, mesons [2 quarks] , binding protons and neutrons [each 3 quarks]. Is this a qabalistic 1-2-3? Are these 'particles' -quarks already containing conciousness?

JMD"In that sense, it may be that sub-atomic physics describes fundamental 'building blocks' (the phrase seems so inappropriate) as mere temporary energy stresses in the space-time continuum - some of which are given wonderful titles - nonetheless, they are still dealing with the furthest physicalist description of phenomenally physical manifestation. A very Assiah-like investigation, and hence Malkut.".

This certainly seems like the logical way of viewing it, but I can help feel that the building blocks are smarter than the buildings they construct....that they contain some sort of wierd higher plane of conciousness..as such I feel drawn to viewing the quarks more kether-, then [c]hockmah -binah.

During the first 1 hundreth thousands of a seond following the 'big bang' it is believed there was a 'quark-gluon plasma', when it was to hot for Hadons to be formed [hadons are protons, neutrons,mesons] This shows that right at 'matters' birth there was 'quarks'. Can all this be placed at malkuths door?


SlyR-recently superstring theory had a major upgrade, with the introduction of 'M-theory', I don't pretend to understand it [hopefully one day !], but here is a good link about it by the experts :-)
http://www.superstringtheory.fanspace.com/
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I am going to have to print out jmd's post and read it offline away from work where I can really think about it.... but it certainly made sense to me on a raw intuitive level.

Laurel
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Perhaps viewing the tree as kether -down to malkuth, then malkuth up to kether as one cycle is worth looking at.

In this , sub atomic to cellular manifestation would take place from [c]hockmah down, then once cellular life at malkuth is achieved, the tree continues back up, from within conciousness , and up into philosophical and beyond. Back to the poInt of origins, Kether.
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This cyclic - and to my mind, spiralling - imaginative work with the Tree is wonderful for reflection.

Of course, we need to ask what this breathing in and out implies for us as human beings and for the world at large.
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Thumbs up great thread


Quote:
Originally posted by AmounrA
Quarks are not fundamental , and do seem to appear from pure energy, but whatever lies beneath quarks is so hopelessly complex and 'out-there' that it really is not clear enough to discuss without a physics expert at hand. Quarks are a good intoduction place because they are quite well studied now [Quantum Chromodynamics], and can be viewed without blowing up the brain.
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(zander) ha! back to joyce & _fw_ ("four quarks for master mark!"), i see...great! what's the "w/out 'blowing up' the brain" comment refering to, exactly (a small joke, perhaps? just asking/clarifying).
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It means in the fundamental creation of the atomic nucleus we have....nothing representing the number 1, mesons [2 quarks] , binding protons and neutrons [each 3 quarks]. Is this a qabalistic 1-2-3? Are these 'particles' -quarks already containing conciousness?
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(zander) didn't crowley tounch upon this, too, in _liber cmxiii_ re "magickial memory" and the buddhist's "ten impurities"? that the supernal triad constitutes (the "image of") the "eternal" essence of man (viz; triad = three, et. al.)? lemme look into this, later, today...
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JMD"In that sense, it may be that sub-atomic physics describes fundamental 'building blocks' (the phrase seems so inappropriate) as mere temporary energy stresses in the space-time continuum - some of which are given wonderful titles - nonetheless, they are still dealing with the furthest physicalist description of phenomenally physical manifestation. A very Assiah-like investigation, and hence Malkut.".

This certainly seems like the logical way of viewing it, but I can help feel that the building blocks are smarter than the buildings they construct....that they contain some sort of wierd higher plane of conciousness..as such I feel drawn to viewing the quarks more kether-, then [c]hockmah -binah.
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(zander) yes; if this's "correct," then, it "blows 'regular, a.i.,' as we know it, out the window," doesn't it?
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During the first 1 hundreth thousands of a seond following the 'big bang' it is believed there was a 'quark-gluon plasma', when it was to hot for Hadons to be formed [hadons are protons, neutrons,mesons] This shows that right at 'matters' birth there was 'quarks'. Can all this be placed at malkuths door?
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(zander) where are you siting this info from? the link below?
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SlyR-recently superstring theory had a major upgrade, with the introduction of 'M-theory', I don't pretend to understand it [hopefully one day !], but here is a good link about it by the experts :-)
http://www.superstringtheory.fanspace.com/
(zander) wow...Great Thread...i think i'm going back to bed!!!

slan leat,
~Z~770
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I think there are many PARALLELS between tarot/kaballah theory and e.g. modern physics. But I also think that one should be wary of taking these too literally. Reading the average spiritual or metaphysical forum one is struck by the number of folk discussing role/application (sic!) of quantum theory in "God". Certainly I have NO objection, but I do rather worry about some of style these discussions follow and when such definitive conclusions are drawn...

Sometimes there are mistaken assumptions about quite clearly defined theoretical predications. This is e.g. prevalent when theory predicts some HARD numbers. ISTR the dimensionality of super symmetry is (Oh I forget now) - 10? But note it is not: 12, 22, 42 (sic) or anything else. Simply, one cannot pick and choose among theoretical results to FIT e.g. tarot/kaballah data. Other SUSY numbers may be quite different from any of the above. And I do sense this sometimes happens, when enthusiasm gets the better of things That said is I am sure there is MUCH of value in study/debate of ancient ways...

From a personal point of view, I find much intriguing material among the numbers and techniques and feel that "they" may indeed be "onto something" re. the key to ALL (or at least many ) things. In that vein, I think one immediate possibility for "theoretical study" might be with "elemental dignities", where, as with quarks we have aggregates of elements: earth, air, fire, water (aka coloured quarks) interacting in attractive or repulsive ways - friends or enemies. The elemental base might represent the containing gluon field. (OK, maybe *that* is a bit of a stretch - glue... geddit?) Not only that the cards (quarks) manifest up and down spins (reversals?) and... and... Okay, Okay, but it is rather INTERESTING that quark combinations in SU(n) are (were once?) represented by "Young Tableau" (box diagrams) q.v. and these do rather rather resemble tarot cards in spreads.

For a glimpse of such things taken to their ultimate see e.g.

http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/seftar.html

A work of genius or delusion? Clearly this gentleman is in much conflict with the particle physics establishment But is he RIGHT? Well, as a real-life onetime particle physicist (for my sins) I have to say that I don't know enough to say...

And I think that is part of the problem! Many of these ideas will (as ever) be dismissed by REAL scientists, not only because of lack of care with numbers, but simply because really high-power stuff could only be peer-assessed for validity, via a MINUTE body of people who could potentially understand it! Mostly they don't have the TIME or inclination. The average working day grind of a (this) particle physicist was all too mundane - mostly spent behind a computer screen battling (I speak from some experience ) with some "operating system". Also, unless one is REALLY up to date with theory it is doubtful whether such immediate knowledge is at one's fingertips, either to confirm or refute such theories. And therein lies (imo) part of the impasse. Rather than this traditional image of the scientist dismissing this stuff with contempt, I see (am one?) merely shrugging his shoulders.

On anyone here's personal theory: Fear not! Chances are *I* won't know if you're right or wrong. But, on the internet, there's always a risk SOMEONE might. Now If I could only (better) remember HALF of this stuff I might indeed go on... Oooops, I already did!

Best, Mac
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Thumbs down "mac"


xyz
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