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kwaw 
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Dali's attributions are based upon those of Pierre Piobb, who was popular with, and an influence upon, several leading surrealists including not only Dali but André Breton and Pierre Mabille. Mabille, editor and contributor of various surrealist magazines, including Minotaur with Breton, to which Dali was a regular contributor, was interested in Hermetica and a student of Piobbs, and Breton and Dali were probably introduced to the work of Piobb via him.

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Adaptation de l'Alphabet hébreu an Tarot (succession des cartes dites Lames majeures).


1 aleph le mage Soleil.
2 beth la porte du temple Lune.
3 ghimel Isis Uranie la Terre.
4 daleth la pierre cubique Jupiter.
5 hé le maître des arcanes Mercure.
6 vau les deux routes la Vierge.
7 zaîn le char d'Osiris le Sagittaire,
8 heth Thémis la Balance.
9 teth la lampe voilée Neptune.
10 iod le sphinx le Capricorne.
11 caph le lion le Lion.
12 lamed le sacrifice Uranus.
13 mem la faux Saturne.
14 noun le génie humain le Verseau.
15 samech le typhon Mars.
16 haïn la tour foudroyée le Bélier.
17 pe l'étoile des mages Vénus.
18 Tsadé le crépuscule le Cancer.
19 coph la lumière les Gémeaux.
20 resh le réveil des morts les Poissons.
21 shin la couronne le Taureau.
22 Tau le crocodile le Scorpion.
(Chr.)

end quote from p.107 Formulaire de Haute Magie by Pierre Piobb

The astrological associations aren't related to any tradition correspondence of such with the hebrew letters. Frequently they appear to be matched with the imagery of the cards, e.g., Temperance = aquarius the water bearer because of the two cups, the sun is Gemini because of the two youths, Moon is cancer because of the crustacean and being the traditional sign of the moon, extending on the logic of the G.D. in that strength must be leo because of the lion, justice is libra because of the scales

(Chr = Paul Christian)

The other tarot C.P-T. refers to is the Alfredo Fermin Cemillan / Maritxu Erlanz de Güler* 'Tarot de Euskalherria' (Basque Country Tarot) published by Fournier:

http://www.tarotpassages.com/basque.htm

Note the above table of Piobb's is also reproduced in:

The Occult Sciences: High Magic
The Encyclopedia of Occult Sciences
Introduction by M.C. Poinsot.

Where you can also find Picard's descriptions of the cards, which also were the basis of Guler's El Gran Esoterica, suggesting the possibility that Guler's use of Piobb in the attributions for the Basque Country Tarot and of Picard's for El Gran Esoterica were both sourced indirectly from the French version of this encylcopedia, rather than directly from their writings. Whatever, it is clear the attributions of Guler's Spanish decks and Dali's are based in the French esoteric traditions of Piobb and Picard, and not to some hirtherto unknown 'Spanish Tradition'.

Both Picard and Piobb were astrologers, and Picard was a member of the Société d'astrology founded by Piobb with Charles Barlet in 1906.

Kwaw

* Maritxu Erlanz de Güler - The Good Witch of Ulia (d.1993) - shame there is not much information on Maritxu, from what little I have read of her (none of which in English), she sounds like she was a fascinating woman.



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Last edited by kwaw; 19-06-2014 at 06:28.
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Thanks for that !

(Look what I found - an Hermetic Surrealist's book on mythology

http://www.amazon.com/Mirror-Marvelo.../dp/0892816503 )



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kwaw 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Thanks for that !

(Look what I found - an Hermetic Surrealist's book on mythology

http://www.amazon.com/Mirror-Marvelo.../dp/0892816503 )

In the surrealist magazine VVV.4, 1944 the surrealist artist Leonora Carringtion in an article 'Down Under' related/explored her psychotic experiences, that led to her being incarcerated in a Spanish asylum as incurably insane in 1940, through the prism of the mythological prism of 'The Mirror of the Marvellous'. In the previous two issues were featured Matto's 'non-euclidean tarot', which he had conceived with Carrington - further evidence of the interest in such esoteric and magical subject matter among the surrealists acquainted with Mabille.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post

I am a little confused ... are you saying that all the possibilities listed in the chart you linked to are explained by the variations in Continental / Kircher / Levi developments?
Sorry for the delay, sorta forgot.

No, I was just providing some information. I am not very historically minded, but I hoard information like this that may be useful elsewhere.



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I had thought about this topic, and only conclusion I could get from it is that the traditional meanings of cards are not important. Meanings are subjective. They evolve and change through time and also between people and cultures.

So that's why it is important to meditate on the cards, as well as reading books as part of Tarot studies.

For instance, if whenever the Chariot card appeared in the spread, one made love to his partner, then to him the Chariot card gets meaning of sex.

The other point is that the reason why Golden Dawn society has linked the cards to the astrology, and cabala in their own way without much understandable explanation was, to exercise their authories to the members, saying this is what we decided to do, and you will follow as chartered by us.

Just my 2 pence



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Last edited by foolMoon; 29-02-2016 at 01:46.
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Zephyros 
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Not really. There is actually loads of information about the GD system, I guess it depends on what one classifies as understandable. All the GD material is open and published and is easily accessible, as is the reasoning for why it works as it does.

While I would agree that the traditional meanings are, well, meaningless, it is important to understand where they come from. Taking all the given attributions of a given card and considering them together doesn't actually give you what passes for a "meaning;" they give you the general energies of the card, its neighborhood of influence. That doesn't by any means preclude meditation and assimilation of everything about the card, quite the contrary. You still have to take astrological attributions, the Kabbalistic ones as well as the general lore of the card and its image and then make all those things mean something meaningful and adapt it to your life and situation. The method adds depth, it doesn't take away.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
.....The other point is that the reason why Golden Dawn society has linked the cards to the astrology, and cabala in their own way without much understandable explanation was, to exercise their authories to the members, saying this is what we decided to do, and you will follow as chartered by us.....)
Very interesting. What is your source for this information, or is it just a "common sense" deduction?



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foolMoon 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyros View Post
Not really. There is actually loads of information about the GD system, I guess it depends on what one classifies as understandable. All the GD material is open and published and is easily accessible, as is the reasoning for why it works as it does.

While I would agree that the traditional meanings are, well, meaningless, it is important to understand where they come from. Taking all the given attributions of a given card and considering them together doesn't actually give you what passes for a "meaning;" they give you the general energies of the card, its neighborhood of influence. That doesn't by any means preclude meditation and assimilation of everything about the card, quite the contrary. You still have to take astrological attributions, the Kabbalistic ones as well as the general lore of the card and its image and then make all those things mean something meaningful and adapt it to your life and situation. The method adds depth, it doesn't take away.
I am not even sure if all the information available today about the GD is actually all there had been, or is it just a tiny tip of giant iceberg. When I read Regardie's GD book, it tells a lot about this is how you do it, and this is the association of that so forth and so fifth, but he isn't telling exactly in clear terms, why they are, they way they are, and where they all originate from. We might be just licking out the skin of a melon, and fooling ourselves - ah ha this is how the melon tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
"Then what is the true meaning, in the category of the Real, of these planets and signs? Here again one is faced with the impossibility of exact definition, because of the possibilities of research are infinite; ....These are all blind steps on the way to the Great Light:"
- Book of Thoth, pp.33, A. Crowley

I don't deny the fact that tarot studies and reading will enrich by studying Cabala and Astrology and TOL, but it has to be evolutionary step which will come in time, effort, patience, hence why we are all here, buying and reading the books, and discussing about it.



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Last edited by foolMoon; 29-02-2016 at 20:47.
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foolMoon 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Very interesting. What is your source for this information, or is it just a "common sense" deduction?
It was just my guess, from the fact that the GD is a hierarchical society.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I am not even sure if all the information available today about the GD is actually all there had been, or is it just a tiny tip of giant iceberg. When I read Regardie's GD book, it tells a lot about this is how you do it, and this is the association of that so forth and so fifth, but he isn't telling exactly in clear terms, why they are, they way they are, and where they all originate from. We might be just licking out the skin of a melon, and fooling ourselves - ah ha this is how the melon tastes.
Ah, but the thing is, there are primary sources available--not just secondary ones like the illustrious Regardie. You can actually read the writings of GD occultists (Mathers is my go-to, but there are others), which are sometimes dense but which provide clear information nonetheless.



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