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ravenest 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
I see The Tower coming up...
(because debate' excites you ? )

Exactly ... as the association between them is ( like the Tower but more controlled ) via Cancer's magical 'weapon' ; The Furnace .

At the end of the 'matching process' this makes sense, at the beginning of the 'matching process' it is more implied by other more obvious associations ( like a lion with Leo ) that set up a system, that the less obvious associations fall into.

If one wants to search for them one can find all sorts of associations ... depending on one;s understanding of the symbols ..... for example I see a connection between a chariot ( taking a God across the sky in the Greek concept) with a bark (taking a God across the sky in the Egyptian concept, also symbolised by the scarab - Kephra ... the symbol the old Horoscope associated together - crab and scarab ... see The Dendera Zodiac. Also see a western 'natural zodiac' where Cancer's position at the IC is at 'midnight' , like Kephera's - the scarab (who also takes things into the 'underworld' for a 'transformation' )/crab .

Some associations are more 'obvious; and some are more 'strained' .

Many have been stumped by the Cancer - Furnace association , to me , having significant placements in cancer in my natal chart, I can understand the connection.

http://www.constellationsofwords.com...ns/Cancer.html



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Last edited by ravenest; 02-03-2016 at 08:33.
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Old 02-03-2016     Top   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Where does IR explain reasons for a Thoth deck in a GD book ?

I guess, I asked for that , inviting questions .

If you want to find out about Thoth and Crowley I would suggest you read Crowley, including the appendix to 777 which explains much of the schemes and associations used for the tarot.
OK, I was under the impression, IR would have been using Thoth deck in his GD book, maybe not. It is strange that he didn't. Having been AC's secretary and also both GM member once in a while. Maybe they fell out in bitter terms, I guess.

Still I would have thought it would have been nice for IR to write about that part in that thick tome of the GD. The astral association to Tarot cards are not just Thoth deck specific either. I wasn't talking about specifically Thoth deck, but the reasons and origins behind the GD's linking each Astral Signs to TAROT cards in general.

I still doubt, AC would explain why each Thoth cards are linked to the astro signs apart from listing tables of the association. I will have a look at them.

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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
a system of associating them on the celestial sphere ..... in my book its an addendum to the tarot section.
Have you written a book? Is it in Amazon?. Ah.. in your opinion? Sorry English is not my first language.
I have read a couple of Cabala books and one was "Chicken Cabala"by LM Duckette, it was good. I was going to re-read it to refresh.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Good ... here is a compendium of GD works, a copy of MTP and 3 Books of Occult Philosophy by Cornelius Agrippa ..... get cookin' !
cheers mate.



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Old 02-03-2016     Top   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
What is your understanding of the association of the Chariot card to the Cancer of the GD?
Could you please reiterate / outline if you have already posted it? Thanks.
Yes, this is one of the less obvious associations. But bear in mind that the Trumps are not equivalent to the signs and planets, they just have affinity with them.

But to answer your question:

There is an ancient belief (going back to the Mithras mysteries) that the soul, prior to birth, descends from the stellar realms in a radiant vehicle (augoeides ochema) - in other words, in a chariot. Macrobius in his Dream of Scipio says that it starts its journey in Cancer (astrologically, this sign stands for birth). First reaching Saturn, it descends to Earth through the planetary spheres - and note that The Chariot is on the path that leads down from Binah (Saturn).

So the astrological associations do make sense, even though it sometimes takes a little ingenuity to unravel them.
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Old 02-03-2016     Top   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
(because debate' excites you ? )
No, because I know that it excites you. But what do I care - after all, I'm not a mod on this forum website.
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Old 02-03-2016     Top   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
OK, I was under the impression, IR would have been using Thoth deck in his GD book, maybe not. It is strange that he didn't. Having been AC's secretary and also both GM member once in a while. Maybe they fell out in bitter terms, I guess.
They were in fact not on very good terms when they separated. Regardie went on with his GD based career, not caring much for Thelema. And Crowley had left the GD behind him long ago (although it forever remained his foundation).

Quote:
Still I would have thought it would have been nice for IR to write about that part in that thick tome of the GD. The astral association to Tarot cards are not just Thoth deck specific either. I wasn't talking about specifically Thoth deck, but the reasons and origins behind the GD's linking each Astral Signs to TAROT cards in general.
The association of the paths on the Tree of Life with the signs and planets goes back at least to the Sepher Yetzirah. And to link the Tarot Trumps to the twenty-two Hebrew letters and their associated paths was not a GD concept either, Eliphas Levy had already done this, even though his system is a little different from the GD's.

Quote:
I still doubt, AC would explain why each Thoth cards are linked to the astro signs apart from listing tables of the association. I will have a look at them.
You will find that there are many important conceptions in AC's writings which he no more than hinted at. Generally, he wrote for the advanced occultist.

Quote:
Have you written a book? Is it in Amazon?. Ah.. in your opinion? Sorry English is not my first language.
To understand Ravenest properly, you actually need to know some Bundjalung.

Quote:
I have read a couple of Cabala books and one was "Chicken Cabala"by LM Duckette, it was good. I was going to re-read it to refresh.
That's a good place to start.

Quote:
cheers, mate
Cheers.

Last edited by Michael Sternbach; 02-03-2016 at 12:21.
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Old 02-03-2016     Top   #45
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I think it's important to note, as Zephyros already has (far back on this thread, and elsewhere) that the astrological attributions of the cards preceded--and in many ways shaped--the traditional interpretive meanings. The Golden Dawn didn't say, "Golly, we have the Chariot, which means X, so let's stick it on Cancer and put it between Binah and Gevurah, just for giggles." It was more, "Well, we have a bundle of associations for this card between Binah and Gevurah, so I guess we can interpret the Chariot as X."

Ravenest is spot-on here: if you want to understand these attributions, you need to be reading primary sources. Israel Regardie is great, but he's reporting what people before him did. In order to really understand why those people did what he's talking about, you need to read them, not him. This includes Crowley (not just 777, although I do love that one; also read the Book of Thoth and other major texts) and other occultists who had a direct influence on Tarot as it exists today. It also might require reading some old-school Kabbalistic texts (reading the Zohar is like drinking cat piss out of a hot thermos in the middle of August, but it's a rite of passage that will probably help you situate yourself, regardless of how unpleasant it is). These are very difficult texts to read, even for native English speakers (although I'm not sure if some of them might exist in translation). But studying them intensively is the best way to come to grips with a difficult esoteric system.

There's been a lot of great discussion about GD astrological attributions on this forum in the past. In particular, I recommend this delightful thread. Regarding the Chariot/Cancer correspondence in particular, you might want to take a look at this post by Zephyros (on the same thread), or this thread.



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Old 02-03-2016     Top   #46
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Great posts, Michael and JackofWands. I feel that I learned a good amount knowledge which is possible by a few month of readings from these posts. Thank you for clearing the clouds in the subjects for me



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Old 02-03-2016     Top   #47
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Browsing BoT tonight, I came across this passage in pp.33
Quote:
There are very few people today who have heard of Plato and Aristotle. Not one in a thousand, perhaps ten thousand, of those have ever read either of them, even in translations. But there are also very few people whose thinking, such as it is, is not conditioned by the ideas of those two men.

In the Tree of Life, therefore, is found the first attempt to connect the Ideal with the Actual. The Qabalists say, for example, that the number 7 contains the idea of Venus, and the number 8 that of Mercury, that the connecting path between I and 6 refers to the moon, and that between 3 and 6 to the Sign of Gemini.


Then what is the true meaning, in the category of the Real, of these planets and signs? Here again one is faced with the impossibility exact definition, because the possibilities of research are infinite; also, at any moment in any research, the one idea merges into the her and clouds the exact definition of the images. But this, of course, is the objective. These are all blind steps on the way to the real Light: when the Universe is perceived as one, yet with all its Lights, each necessary and each distinct.


The beginning of this work is, however, easy enough. One requires no more than elementary classical knowledge. Roughly taking, for a start, the natures of the planets are described by those of the gods after whom the actual bodies in heaven were named, according to the old astrological ideas of their influence on the affairs of men. The same is true, to a less extent, of the Signs of the Zodiac. There is not so much information available about their natures; but it is helpful to note which planet rules which sign, and in which sign which planets are exalted. The individual Fixed Stars do not enter into the system of the Tarot.

Crowley too, sounds pretty sceptic on the part of astrological connections to Tarot cards. I was really saying what he was saying here.

I didn't imagine the GD people would have had copied exactly what had been done hundred or thousands years ago by the ancients, but they would have had their own clear principles and theories behind their system.

I will do some further research with the suggested preliminary readings. Just ordered afore mentioned Agrippa book from Amazon.



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Last edited by foolMoon; 03-03-2016 at 22:54.
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Old 03-03-2016     Top   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
OK, I was under the impression, IR would have been using Thoth deck in his GD book, maybe not. It is strange that he didn't. Having been AC's secretary and also both GM member once in a while. Maybe they fell out in bitter terms, I guess.
I think it is a timing issue. The GD initiates used the GD deck and Regardie did too. Thoth 'came out' much later (except for some original exhibits. Some collector here can probably date the first Thoth deck appearance better than I could. In any case, I pretty sure that it was after the corpus of books I.R. put together for his GD Book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Still I would have thought it would have been nice for IR to write about that part in that thick tome of the GD. The astral association to Tarot cards are not just Thoth deck specific either. I wasn't talking about specifically Thoth deck, but the reasons and origins behind the GD's linking each Astral Signs to TAROT cards in general.
If you mean the astrological associations and astrological signs , one has to - sort of -comprehend the whole corpus, including references to earlier ideas and people that started this - like Eliphas Levi , and the reasons some changed things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I still doubt, AC would explain why each Thoth cards are linked to the astro signs apart from listing tables of the association. I will have a look at them.
I agree that in many cases , in The Book of Thoth he puts a chart in , probably lifted from the GD with no explanation, and in some cases , sets up seemingly contradictory info.

EG. One small chart lists 'astrological' attributions of court cards ; 20 deg of one sign to 20 of another, but also , 20 degrees of one sign, 20 degrees of another AND part of Pegasus (or part of another constellation , ie. indicating not tropic signs but sidereal constellations. Yet the rest of Thoth seems to indicate tropical sign association.

An observant reader, familiar with Thoth, will get to that bit and .... WHAAAT ! ? If they follow it up and its source in GD .... well, let's say, for here ..... hold on to your hat !

I think the idea is, the BoT CAN be used for the novice but it is also for some that Crowley assumed may be initiates (or at least have deeper knowledge of ) ... of both the GD and Thoth systems. Also AC has admitted is one of his writing faults is he assumes people have very extensive backgrounds in the subject and he is not so much educating but offering a different point of view.

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post

Have you written a book? Is it in Amazon?. Ah.. in your opinion? Sorry English is not my first language.
Ah, I see ! Thanks for explaining that. No, not my Book I wrote .... in my book - my copy of that GD Book I meant.

I was being slack (as this book does not have consecutive number pages all the way through, they re-start at each 'sub book' ... oh well, .... <groan - gets up off fat but and drags himslef over to book shelf > ... lets see ;

Its Book 4 of IR's The GD, Book T starts at p. 137 of book 4 at the 'end' of Book T is a chapter ( p 218 of Bk 4 ) " The Tree of Life as Projetced in a Solid Sphere' . The first part of this outlines their is an imprtant difference in the system of astrology they use.
.
Here it shows associations to constellations - sub section 'Star Groups' .

Eg. The Devil - The whole of Capricorn. (Then below on the next line a new sentence )
Stars. The whole lower half of Capricornus, the he-Goat, part of Piscis Australia, Southern Fish, Microscope part of Grus, Part of Indus.

8 of pentacles o to 10 degrees of Virgo (then a Sun symbol ), Part of Argo, Part of Pisces Vulcan.

Then a recapitulation. then " The operation and rule of the ToL in the celestial heavens projected as if in a solid sphere."

- Essentially, one won't find an explanation between astrology and Tarot, as it is mostly seen working within the Thoth deck, in the GD papers, as the GD associations were not done with modern tropical astrology.

Whether the Thoth astrology is more modern tropical sign based one is still up for debate IMO. I have quiet a few posts and threads here and in DG forum relating to it.

:
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
I have read a couple of Cabala books and one was "Chicken Cabala"by LM Duckette, it was good. I was going to re-read it to refresh.
I see. I thought you were saying you had read the GD book and couldn't find the explanations you needed.

I suggest the best approach for you is to continue the basic Kabbalh, for now, treat Thoth astrology as most seem to - a tropical sign association.

and to comprehend more of the 'why?' behind associations, start with some history, like why Levi came up with it .... isnt there some intro to this in BoT ? ... and appendix for 777 to get a general background on hermetic kabbalistic associations via GD .


Here .... http://www.golden-dawn-canada.com/pd...%20revised.pdf

from p.59 onwards



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Old 04-03-2016     Top   #49
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PS, note first para. One needs a background of certain knowledge to 'get it '.



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Old 04-03-2016     Top   #50
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