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smw 
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middle pillar


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Yes, that is one of his magical rituals ... perhaps his Rose Cross ritual is also on par with that. They do have significant beneficial psychological effects when practised correctly and over time.The psychological practices I am referring to though are more 'psychological' than 'magical' - the sort you would expect to encounter with a psychotherapist or psychiatrist ... Regardie devoted some of his time after starting to study magick to get qualified in those fields. These are the practices I was referring to.
oh ok, you mean therapy. It does seem kind of blurry though. I have just dug out an old copy of Regardie's Foundations of Practical Magic where he describes the middle pillar technique within the chapter of the Art of true healing, which seems to be discussing the therapeutic affects (interestingly including physical problems)of bringing power and spiritual energy into the system - though I have only skimmed at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
The thing is, in this view, (and I hold it as well) that no matter how much 'magick' one does it does not guarantee psychological stability ... and may even make it worse. I think he saw enough of that with Crowley and the Golden Dawn shenanigans ;jk

http://i.bookfi.org/covers/438000/58...e9b8bfc4-g.jpg

and it isnt that hard to see the problem still manifesting today .
I wouldn't mind getting that but I have already got a small pile of books to read.... interestingly in the introduction to his Tree of Life he remarks that though his later years brought about a separation from the Order, he regrets his youthful presumption and arrogance. He also credits Crowley as an inspiration and to whom he owed very much to. Though further down - "with due respect to Crowley's abundant genius, it has been said my presentation did more justice to the Order than did his"

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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
To achieve real growth in magick, a stable psyche is needed, you need either to have one, or develop one.
that's a given really isn't it? not sure how far you would get in anything if you were unstable.

eta I just read in that intro that he does caution the serious student to undergo some kind of psychotherapy before proceeding with practices and felt that the methods of the Great Work should be wedded to this.

Last edited by smw; 25-03-2015 at 06:01.
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Originally Posted by smw View Post
eta I just read in that intro that he does caution the serious student to undergo some kind of psychotherapy before proceeding with practices and felt that the methods of the Great Work should be wedded to this.
Or auditing with an e-meter

(Sorry, just saw "Going Clear." I actually tried a Scientology course when I was young, I attended a session and a half before being bored to death by the immense amount of bullshit.)

Anyway, I think that the benefits of the LBRP, and indeed all magickal practice, is two-fold. Like anything you do every day, there is a certain discipline that is built when you take aside some time in order to practice something who's results or efficacy are measured in extended amounts of time. When I starting lifting weights I was almost twenty kilos less than I am now, and made every mistake possible. But you persevere and even if you do it wrong, you still make gains simply by doing it. And I'm not naturally inclined to work, I'm a lazy stoner, so if I can do it, anyone can.

Secondly, there is worth in the work itself. The first few times I did the Liber Resh I felt silly, saying these strange meaningless things, and making strange movements. But the more you understand it, the more natural it becomes. There is something wildly satisfying about taking a few minutes a day to actively appreciate, whatever it is that you're appreciating. My theory is that that is what prayers before meals are for, to take a moment to marvel at the miracle of substance stored as energy. Or the Sun. Or your place in the universe, as with the LBRP.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
that's a given really isn't it? not sure how far you would get in anything if you were unstable.
This is a tricky point. You can be unstable and go a long way, but at the same time go absolutely nowhere.

This little quote form James Eshelman gets to the heart of the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Eshelman
Increasing in "spirituality" does not, by itself, resolve negative patterns [in the psyche]. It may alter our perspectives so that we, in turn, undertake to resolve old patterns, but this doesn't happen automatically.

So, as we grow, we just become expanded versions of the same critter that we were at the beginning. "Great people have great flaws: Everything about them is great." To change old patterns we have to actually place attention on changing old patterns, not just "increase in Light."
Gaining an altered/expanded perspective from 'spiritual practices' is one thing. Being able to consistently operate from that perspective is another thing altogether. Old 'habituated' patterns in the psyche still have the power to send us down the well worn roads of thought and behaviour that we've been travelling for years.

This is an important point to bear in mind when looking at the life of someone like Aleister Crowley. Many people find it confusing how his mundane life and spiritual attainments don't always match up. The same is true of everyone else too, except maybe not so blatantly.

"Great people have great flaws: Everything about them is great."



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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Please define "stable psyche".
Within the context of 'magick' , I will let the 'old boy' do that : Ch I Liber O



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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
oh ok, you mean therapy.
Actually, I mean developing oneself to the fullest personal potential ( the main aim of magick , as I see it ) .... magick alone may not suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
It does seem kind of blurry though. I have just dug out an old copy of Regardie's Foundations of Practical Magic where he describes the middle pillar technique within the chapter of the Art of true healing, which seems to be discussing the therapeutic affects (interestingly including physical problems)of bringing power and spiritual energy into the system - though I have only skimmed at the moment.



I wouldn't mind getting that but I have already got a small pile of books to read.... interestingly in the introduction to his Tree of Life he remarks that though his later years brought about a separation from the Order, he regrets his youthful presumption and arrogance. He also credits Crowley as an inspiration and to whom he owed very much to. Though further down - "with due respect to Crowley's abundant genius, it has been said my presentation did more justice to the Order than did his"



that's a given really isn't it? not sure how far you would get in anything if you were unstable.
The thing is, magick is an unusual practice that may throw up unusual results, some find the line between that and 'instability' a bit blurred and a bit hard to tell which side of that line they are on. There are dudes on the net that will receive payment to do a 'black magic' spell for you and record it on video and send it to you so you have proof it was done (no, I haven't watched on of those .)

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Originally Posted by smw View Post
eta I just read in that intro that he does caution the serious student to undergo some kind of psychotherapy before proceeding with practices and felt that the methods of the Great Work should be wedded to this.
Yep .... that is exactly what I was referring to .

Can you imagine what a combination of powerful evocative ritual mixed with drugs would do to one who is psychological unstable ?

Actually, this stability thing is a corner stone of magic ; the four elements need to be equally secure and level (stable) like the foundations of a pyramid. The better that is worked on, the higher the elements in combination can reach up to the one point of singularity (spirit).

You might get 'high' quickly without that structured stability .... but eventually when the pressure DOES come (and it WILL ! ) .... a bad edifice (in both senses of the word) may well ;

http://www.egyptlandofeternity.com/i...eidum_2076.jpg



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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Within the context of 'magick' , I will let the 'old boy' do that : Ch I Liber O
Question rose due to the fact that psychologically the concept "stable" is relative, and "psyche" constantly vacillating / evolving entity.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Actually, I mean developing oneself to the fullest personal potential ( the main aim of magick , as I see it ) .... magick alone may not suffice.

"The psychological practices I am referring to though are more 'psychological' than 'magical' - the sort you would expect to encounter with a psychotherapist or psychiatrist ..."
That is therapy. I am feeling a bit confused by your distinction. As I understand it, depending on the type of therapy, development of full potential as you say above can be the aim. I think this is the case in Jungian analysis where the focus is individuation - the recovering of your true self (including unwanted repressed shadow aspects) and so being able to realise your own full potential and creativity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
The thing is, magick is an unusual practice that may throw up unusual results, some find the line between that and 'instability' a bit blurred and a bit hard to tell which side of that line they are on. There are dudes on the net that will receive payment to do a 'black magic' spell for you and record it on video and send it to you so you have proof it was done (no, I haven't watched on of those .)
I don't really know what counts as magickal practice....However, as for instability...hmm..I have had my moments. I recently stayed in an old faded hotel in Hastings with a huge floor to ceiling mirror on the staircase. I was fascinated...what sort of things had this hotel seen.... I thought I would take some pics or try scrying, it felt like a portal. One of my children went to walk up the reflected stairs through the glass, it was that realistic.

When I checked the photos to see if anything interesting had shown up I was disappointed to see nothing. Then I noticed that there seemed to be something unpleasant about the reflection of me (taking the picture). When I enlarged it, the distortion of the glass had given me one horrible blackish staring eye, I was gripping my iphone like a mad demon woman and to finish off my thumb and scarf had blurred together to look like the head of a bald imp coming out of my chest...I pretended at the time that it was funny, but really I was a bit freaked out.

the spell dudes... I don't know...perhaps boundaries can become blurry and it is harder to be sure what is real and what isn't at times for some people especially if they are having difficult times. For me they just sound like exploitative conmen... but then that is coming from someone who thinks she see's Crowleyite bald imps in her pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Actually, this stability thing is a corner stone of magic ; the four elements need to be equally secure and level (stable) like the foundations of a pyramid. The better that is worked on, the higher the elements in combination can reach up to the one point of singularity (spirit).
I havent' really got to grips with the elements yet... I understand kind of superficially what you are saying... but not really, if that makes sense.

Last edited by smw; 07-04-2015 at 07:12.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
Or auditing with an e-meter
my quote did look a bit earnest

Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
Anyway, I think that the benefits of the LBRP, and indeed all magickal practice, is two-fold. Like anything you do every day, there is a certain discipline that is built when you take aside some time in order to practice something who's results or efficacy are measured in extended amounts of time. When I starting lifting weights I was almost twenty kilos less than I am now, and made every mistake possible. But you persevere and even if you do it wrong, you still make gains simply by doing it. And I'm not naturally inclined to work, I'm a lazy stoner, so if I can do it, anyone can.

Secondly, there is worth in the work itself. The first few times I did the Liber Resh I felt silly, saying these strange meaningless things, and making strange movements. But the more you understand it, the more natural it becomes. There is something wildly satisfying about taking a few minutes a day to actively appreciate, whatever it is that you're appreciating. My theory is that that is what prayers before meals are for, to take a moment to marvel at the miracle of substance stored as energy. Or the Sun. Or your place in the universe, as with the LBRP.
I'm not very disciplined either... and I have thought I might feel silly trying rituals. I would though like to be more connected and appreciate the natural world and rythms..

Last edited by smw; 07-04-2015 at 23:00.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418 View Post
This is a tricky point. You can be unstable and go a long way, but at the same time go absolutely nowhere.

This little quote form James Eshelman gets to the heart of the problem.

Gaining an altered/expanded perspective from 'spiritual practices' is one thing. Being able to consistently operate from that perspective is another thing altogether. Old 'habituated' patterns in the psyche still have the power to send us down the well worn roads of thought and behaviour that we've been travelling for years.

This is an important point to bear in mind when looking at the life of someone like Aleister Crowley. Many people find it confusing how his mundane life and spiritual attainments don't always match up. The same is true of everyone else too, except maybe not so blatantly.

"Great people have great flaws: Everything about them is great."
yes, it is a tricky one.....if I understand the quote correctly new perspectives from spiritual practices may always be in conflict with our old ways of thinking laid down from our backgrounds which are hard to shift. This makes sense to me.

great people have great flaws...does look that way...

For more everyday folk perhaps the key is to tread the moments of instability that arise and to keep an eye on everyday functioning.

Last edited by smw; 07-04-2015 at 07:24.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Question rose due to the fact that psychologically the concept "stable" is relative, and "psyche" constantly vacillating / evolving entity.
Yep. But here the relativity relates to the ability to achieve the end result and not any mundane comparative reality. To the majority of 'scientific minded' and badly educated western materialists, anyone who even talks about magic may be considered unstable.

Not sure what you mean by a vacillating psyche, if you mean it can work in different modes, then yes. If you mean 'irresolute' , then I would say that psyche has a problem or a confused function. Certainly it should be evolving. Parts of it dont even seem to exist until other parts evolve and bring them forward so they can evolve too eg, the psychological personna, the Egyptian Akh.



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