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SuitofSwords 
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Astrology and Tarot? Is this the right thread?


Hey you guys! I've been hearing a lot about using astrology and tarot together for certain decks like Waite. Wondering how do you begin using it? Where do you start, or just general knowledge and suggestions on where to begin. Hopefully this is the right place to ask this question.
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rwcarter 
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Here's a good place to start - Astrological Attributions of All Cards

Rodney



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Nemia 
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Anthony Louis, Corinne Kenner and Ruth Aharoni wrote books about this topic. I'd start with Aharoni and Kenner for the basic stuff, and for the interesting aspects, I'd recommend Louis.
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Thirteen 
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Cool Useful but often subjective...especially the courts


I'd take a look at what Crowley/Golden Dawn has to say on the topic (Nicely encapsulated here: https://www.biddytarot.com/tarot-astrology-golden-dawn/). These likely also apply to Waite's deck. Keep in mind that many tarot card creators have their own take on which astological sign/planet/element goes with which card. This is especially true when you get to the Courts. Pick up different decks, even RWS clones, and you'll see the creator's own take on what zodiac sign should be attributed to which court. The Queen/Cups, for example, might have a crab at her feet for Cancer, or have a pisces sign etched on her throne. Which should she be? You'll hear all kinds of arguments that validate either choice

In fact, if you will permit a digression here...allow me to elaborate on this point. As court card zodiac signs are the most frequently discussed zodiac-tarot-cards topic you'll see here

The problem that is that readers assume that court-card-signifiers have to reflect the sitter's rising sign. This isn't true at all! A sitter might be Virgo, and yet not seem like a Knight/Pents. They may seem like a Queen/Swords. If so, that should be their signifier. As you know, we are more than just our rising signs, and signifiers should reflect who the person is at this time in their life (or the situation relating to the reading). Or even the card the sitter, themselves, identify with. If that is their rising-sign court card, fine. But if not, that's fine, too.

Where the zodiac signs of courts really matter is when the reader needs extra help. So, you get the Knight/Pents in a reading and think he stands for someone the sitter knows. Who? Well, after running down possibilities, you might ask "Do you know a Virgo?" And the sitter might say, "Ah, yes, that's probably who it is..."

Ultimately, it will become your decision whether to follow what the Golden Dawn (and their ilk like Waite and Crowley) decided in regards to court-card-zodiac or your own strong feelings. All that I would recommend--as a good idea for any tarot reader--is that you remain consistent. Meaning (1) You keep to Earth signs for the Pentacles, water signs for the cups, etc. and (2) that if you give a fixed sign to one queen then give fixed signs to all. This is practical (helps you remember who gets which) and makes sense.

By makes sense I mean that you'll hear about readers who identify with a certain court card, and feel it should have their rising sign even if it doesn't make sense. For example, there was one thread arguing that the Queen/Swords ought to be Virgo. Whether she has Virgo elements or not wasn't the point. The "makes no sense" part was that the reader would end up with an unassigned air sign, and unassigned Pentacle card. What is the Knight/Pentacles if you give Virgo to the Queen? And who gets Aquarius? The Knight/Pents? That doesn't make any sense

Anyway, that's my little digression on the topic. Hope it helps.
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Barleywine 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
I'd take a look at what Crowley/Golden Dawn has to say on the topic (Nicely encapsulated here: https://www.biddytarot.com/tarot-astrology-golden-dawn/). These likely also apply to Waite's deck. Keep in mind that many tarot card creators have their own take on which astological sign/planet/element goes with which card. This is especially true when you get to the Courts. Pick up different decks, even RWS clones, and you'll see the creator's own take on what zodiac sign should be attributed to which court. The Queen/Cups, for example, might have a crab at her feet for Cancer, or have a pisces sign etched on her throne. Which should she be? You'll hear all kinds of arguments that validate either choice

In fact, if you will permit a digression here...allow me to elaborate on this point. As court card zodiac signs are the most frequently discussed zodiac-tarot-cards topic you'll see here

The problem that is that readers assume that court-card-signifiers have to reflect the sitter's rising sign. This isn't true at all! A sitter might be Virgo, and yet not seem like a Knight/Pents. They may seem like a Queen/Swords. If so, that should be their signifier. As you know, we are more than just our rising signs, and signifiers should reflect who the person is at this time in their life (or the situation relating to the reading). Or even the card the sitter, themselves, identify with. If that is their rising-sign court card, fine. But if not, that's fine, too.

Where the zodiac signs of courts really matter is when the reader needs extra help. So, you get the Knight/Pents in a reading and think he stands for someone the sitter knows. Who? Well, after running down possibilities, you might ask "Do you know a Virgo?" And the sitter might say, "Ah, yes, that's probably who it is..."

Ultimately, it will become your decision whether to follow what the Golden Dawn (and their ilk like Waite and Crowley) decided in regards to court-card-zodiac or your own strong feelings. All that I would recommend--as a good idea for any tarot reader--is that you remain consistent. Meaning (1) You keep to Earth signs for the Pentacles, water signs for the cups, etc. and (2) that if you give a fixed sign to one queen then give fixed signs to all. This is practical (helps you remember who gets which) and makes sense.

By makes sense I mean that you'll hear about readers who identify with a certain court card, and feel it should have their rising sign even if it doesn't make sense. For example, there was one thread arguing that the Queen/Swords ought to be Virgo. Whether she has Virgo elements or not wasn't the point. The "makes no sense" part was that the reader would end up with an unassigned air sign, and unassigned Pentacle card. What is the Knight/Pentacles if you give Virgo to the Queen? And who gets Aquarius? The Knight/Pents? That doesn't make any sense

Anyway, that's my little digression on the topic. Hope it helps.
I agree that the "rising sign" model is really no better than the "physical appearance" model for selecting a significator, it just seems more "scientific." Regarding the court card attributions, I've always found Crowley's descriptions ("moral characteristics") in the Book of Thoth with their references to the associated decans to be the most useful. Rather than having to wade through the book searching for them every time I needed a reference, I tabulated all of the keywords and phrases, along with the decan meanings from my astrology books, into a single table for easy reference. Here's the link; post # 9 has the final version of the table.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=259055



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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Soon as she spreads her hand th’ aerial guard/Descend and sit on each important card." - Alexander Pope, The Rape of the Lock, Canto III
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SuitofSwords 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemia View Post
Anthony Louis, Corinne Kenner and Ruth Aharoni wrote books about this topic. I'd start with Aharoni and Kenner for the basic stuff, and for the interesting aspects, I'd recommend Louis.
I'll look into those!
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SuitofSwords 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
I'd take a look at what Crowley/Golden Dawn has to say on the topic (Nicely encapsulated here: https://www.biddytarot.com/tarot-astrology-golden-dawn/). These likely also apply to Waite's deck. Keep in mind that many tarot card creators have their own take on which astological sign/planet/element goes with which card. This is especially true when you get to the Courts. Pick up different decks, even RWS clones, and you'll see the creator's own take on what zodiac sign should be attributed to which court. The Queen/Cups, for example, might have a crab at her feet for Cancer, or have a pisces sign etched on her throne. Which should she be? You'll hear all kinds of arguments that validate either choice

In fact, if you will permit a digression here...allow me to elaborate on this point. As court card zodiac signs are the most frequently discussed zodiac-tarot-cards topic you'll see here

The problem that is that readers assume that court-card-signifiers have to reflect the sitter's rising sign. This isn't true at all! A sitter might be Virgo, and yet not seem like a Knight/Pents. They may seem like a Queen/Swords. If so, that should be their signifier. As you know, we are more than just our rising signs, and signifiers should reflect who the person is at this time in their life (or the situation relating to the reading). Or even the card the sitter, themselves, identify with. If that is their rising-sign court card, fine. But if not, that's fine, too.

Where the zodiac signs of courts really matter is when the reader needs extra help. So, you get the Knight/Pents in a reading and think he stands for someone the sitter knows. Who? Well, after running down possibilities, you might ask "Do you know a Virgo?" And the sitter might say, "Ah, yes, that's probably who it is..."

Ultimately, it will become your decision whether to follow what the Golden Dawn (and their ilk like Waite and Crowley) decided in regards to court-card-zodiac or your own strong feelings. All that I would recommend--as a good idea for any tarot reader--is that you remain consistent. Meaning (1) You keep to Earth signs for the Pentacles, water signs for the cups, etc. and (2) that if you give a fixed sign to one queen then give fixed signs to all. This is practical (helps you remember who gets which) and makes sense.

By makes sense I mean that you'll hear about readers who identify with a certain court card, and feel it should have their rising sign even if it doesn't make sense. For example, there was one thread arguing that the Queen/Swords ought to be Virgo. Whether she has Virgo elements or not wasn't the point. The "makes no sense" part was that the reader would end up with an unassigned air sign, and unassigned Pentacle card. What is the Knight/Pentacles if you give Virgo to the Queen? And who gets Aquarius? The Knight/Pents? That doesn't make any sense

Anyway, that's my little digression on the topic. Hope it helps.
I actually just read that same post yesterday and got confused which is why I'm here lol! But your example helped shed light on how it it's used which is something that has been confusing me. So thank you for all of your response, it gives me a lot to think on!
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SuitofSwords 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwcarter View Post
Here's a good place to start - Astrological Attributions of All Cards

Rodney
Nice! Thanks!
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_R_ 
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Golden Dawn and GD-inspired authors aside, there is little consensus on the analogies and connections between the Tarot and Astrology. Many of the attributions provided by various writers appear quite arbitrary, if not forced, at times, much like the cabbalistic correspondences, for that matter.

And yet, this is a very interesting topic, which has been sadly under-studied in its deeper implications: a thorough and coherent astronomical-astrological basis to the Tarot has not, to the best of my knowledge, yet been put forth, much less an examination of any calendrical correspondences.

One French author posed these questions one hundred years ago, and they still have not been satisfactorily answered. The article in question may be found here, for those who read French (Part V): http://livres-mystiques.com/partieTE...ier/tarot.html

I will try to post a translation of some of its salient points this coming weekend if possible, since to meditate on these possible correspondences is a useful exercise in analogical thinking and good training in optical reading.
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Barleywine 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _R_ View Post
Golden Dawn and GD-inspired authors aside, there is little consensus on the analogies and connections between the Tarot and Astrology. Many of the attributions provided by various writers appear quite arbitrary, if not forced, at times, much like the cabbalistic correspondences, for that matter.

And yet, this is a very interesting topic, which has been sadly under-studied in its deeper implications: a thorough and coherent astronomical-astrological basis to the Tarot has not, to the best of my knowledge, yet been put forth, much less an examination of any calendrical correspondences.

One French author posed these questions one hundred years ago, and they still have not been satisfactorily answered. The article in question may be found here, for those who read French (Part V): http://livres-mystiques.com/partieTE...ier/tarot.html

I will try to post a translation of some of its salient points this coming weekend if possible, since to meditate on these possible correspondences is a useful exercise in analogical thinking and good training in optical reading.
Looking forward to it. I find that the Golden Dawn attributions mostly work for their intended purpose, but some do seem forced (like Cancer for the Chariot), so I made my own provisional stab at reassigning some of the Major Arcana correspondences. Using the Chaldean decans for the Minor Arcana also works in a utilitarian way, but the math of it made for some arbitrary alignments. As a philosophical model the whole thing doesn't bear up to a whole lot of scrutiny. Paul Foster Case exerted himself most strenuously trying to justify the qabalistic and astrological connections, although some of it seems a bit thin. But for purposes of divination, the correspondences seem to add value when more depth is needed, as long as they aren't taken too literally.



__________________
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Soon as she spreads her hand th’ aerial guard/Descend and sit on each important card." - Alexander Pope, The Rape of the Lock, Canto III

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