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fluffy 
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More......


The plummed headress refers to wind or air and was what Amun was originally a deity of, then he became the "breath of life" which was associated with the Ba and Ka.

Hope this helps a little

Fluff
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Old 25-03-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #21
teomat 
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I'm re-discovering this deck after nearly 4 years of keeping it buried in my collection. I'm not usually keen on 'theme' decks as I tend to think of them as pretty shallow and lack any ‘meaningful symbolism’ (sounds very pompous I know ), but this one is so well-done and chock-a-block with symbolism, that I felt I needed to give it another go (especially after reading all the new threads on it by rwcarter). I re-read Barrett’s book over the weekend, and was very impressed by his commentary on these cards.

I love this Fool card too. I shuffled the deck this morning and drew this card, so it felt very appropriate to me to begin studying this deck.

One phrase from the book which stuck in my mind was that Amun ‘is the hidden god, the god behind the universe, the power beyond the sun’. I tend to think of The World as the ‘god card’, so the idea that the Fool is the actual ‘creator god’ in this deck is a fascinating concept.
The Fool represents naivety, innocence and ‘foolishness’, so is ‘the god behind the universe’ just a Fool? Does he act without purpose, or just on a whim?

In this deck, The Fool is numbered 0 and is placed at the beginning of the Major Arcana sequence. However in other decks, The Fool is sometimes placed after The World. So perhaps the idea of The Fool being the last step in the sequence (i.e the ‘God’ card) can give us an alternative view of this card? That being ‘godlike’ is akin to being ‘foolish’ (and vice-versa)? Or that to reach God is to reach absolute purity?

Also...what does the white dove signify (beyond the idea of purity)?
Barrett doesn't mention it in his description of this card, and no-one else has commented on it. It re-appears on the High Priestess card, and Barrett says that it's “one of the sacred birds of Isis…”.

So what is the connection (if any) between Isis and Amun?
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Old 27-05-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teomat
Also...what does the white dove signify (beyond the idea of purity)?
Barrett doesn't mention it in his description of this card, and no-one else has commented on it. It re-appears on the High Priestess card, and Barrett says that it's “one of the sacred birds of Isis…”.

So what is the connection (if any) between Isis and Amun?
Amun-Ra begot Tefnut and Shu, who in turn begot Nuit and Geb, who in turn begot Isis, Osiris, Set, Nepthys and Horus the Elder. So that would make Amun-Ra the great-grandfather of Isis.

Barrett doesn't discuss a lot of the images he's added into his cards.

But in the High Priestess he does mention that the dove is the holy spirit, which is the agent of divine impregnation. The various versions of the creation myths I ran across during my studies all suggested that Amun begot his children without the aid of a wife, so maybe in this card the dove is the representation of that process?

Rodney



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Old 29-05-2008 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #23
teomat 
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Thanks for clearing this up Rodney - it makes much more sense now.

I read-up on Amun and see you are correct in that he was 'self-created' and that he fathered Tefnut and Shu without his wife's aid (Mut) - wonder where she appeared from though? Perhaps she's a 'later' goddess that was then attached to Amun?

I agree it's a little frustrating that Barrett doesn't explain all the symbolism he's used, but I don't mind too much. It gives us the opportunity to research these things ourselves and adds a bit more mystery to this deck.
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I also noticed the dove is also on the Tower card also.. which is quite fitting to the Tower as well. (it is in the hands of the divine)

The Fool is one of my favourites in this deck..
The crocodile has me intrigued in this card. as my western thoughts on crocodiles and ,also living in croc country , makes it a bit odd!.

here are a few links i found on him.. Sobek the crocodile sun god.
the second link makes more sense to me as to why he would be here in this card..

http://users.bigpond.net.au/bstone/egyptian_gods.htm

http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/gods/explore/main.html

The Ostrich feather in his hand , written in hieroglyph means "I"
Here is also a representation of what the Ostrich feather means
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/feather.htm


The flowers in the card.. I may just write to Clive Barret and ask him if they meant anything or what type they are. as I need to return an email thanking him for this deck anyways. so in passing LOL!


here hoping to revive this study group



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Last edited by Dancing Bear; 26-06-2009 at 19:30.
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Just reading about the dove in the Tower

"The Dove is the emblem of Isis, standing out bright and knowing against the darkness of human self-delusion"



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The crocodile in the Fool is a guise of Set, not Sobek.



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I havent been reading the book.. If Set was represented by the form of a serpent it would have more sense to me..

Do you know why he uses a Croc as Set?


Sets main Guise was a Serpent.. Not Exclusively but mainly. Sobek was the companion of Set.


It wasnt until later Set became Evil ( the fight between Horus and Set) made Set evil. Set( Typhon) Had slain Horus's father OSiris, by tricking him and Putting Osiris into a casket and setting him adrift in the river Byblos...Isis found her husband..she hid him.. Typhon found him again, he chopped Osiris him into 14 pieces and threw the pieces into croc infested waters. in which Isis in turn found those pieces...and so the story continues ...... This is the Closest Connection in the Book of the Dead , Of Set and Crocodiles, O and Set being a Companion of Sobek (crocodile god) ...Prior to the war between Horus and Set, Set was worshipped and a Protector.
So maybe i am thinking too early..
Set the Worshipped God Just noticed the link doesnt connect to page.. it is page 97

Or maybe he is going my Dr Brugsch's Observations and rightly so in many ways. But not in earlier History..But later. "every creature which was snared or caught in the waters or hunted in the desert, was treated as an incarnation of Set" which in later beliefs they were and Crocodiles were included.. Set at this stage was the embodiment of Evil.


Maybe the book is going to have to be read afterall.. and then i am going to readjust it and add my own to it.. Because i also cannot refer to the figure as Amun , i see him as Amen. also LOL!! i know it is not much difference in spelling but it makes a difference to me..



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Last edited by Dancing Bear; 28-06-2009 at 16:33.
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Dancing Bear 
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OK read the Book!!

Noticed Clive is hovering around the Osiris, Isis & Horus tales.
thats why his Set is Evil.
Still dont get why he used a Croc.. maybe because it looked better on the card than a Serpent maybe? I am still going to use my own interpretation with this because to me it fits better..

For me the Fool encourages the sitter to take that leap.. even if they cant see how it could maybe turn out.. trusting this leap to be a good thing..
I am seeing the dog as a Guide and protector.. reinforced along with The Croc to be also a protector..

Because if this dog is soley the protector, and the Croc is the evil Set. he aint doing a good Job, Amen is walking straight for the Croc.. I would have imagined the dog between the croc and Amen.
Dont want to pick this deck to pieces, just want it to make sense to "Me".
Even if i use Sobek in the first card.. the story of Osiris and Isis still flows.

Also prior to Horus being born Set is a Man.. he fights in the form of a Serpent and Bear. it is after the fight , Horus Kills Set , that is when water and desert creatures are the embodiment of Set. They are his incarnations which means he is dead when this happens. So if Horus is not born. Set is not dead..
I know its only symbolically and not actual < But i am truly having a hard time seeing Set as a Croc.

Have you looked into this RwCarter?



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Last edited by Dancing Bear; 29-06-2009 at 07:48.
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Old 29-06-2009 Need answers now? Get 50% off your first live Tarot session!     Top   #29
rwcarter 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancing Bear
I am still going to use my own interpretation with this because to me it fits better..
I encourage everyone to do that, so can't take anyone to task for doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancing Bear
I know its only symbolically and not actual < But i am truly having a hard time seeing Set as a Croc.
According to the Dictionary of Ancient Deities by Turner and Coulter, "Set has many animal aspects: the antelope, donkey, ass, crocodile, and sow." According to the Encyclopedia of Gods by Jordan, "Seth is also represented by the crocodile." Finally, according to The Facts on File Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, "Other animals associated with Set were the antelope, the crocodile, and the ass." So there are at least three non-Barrett references to Set as a crocodile. I'm sure I have more, but those books are back on the bookcase. Those three are at hand as I work with a different mythology-based deck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancing Bear
Because if this dog is soley the protector, and the Croc is the evil Set. he aint doing a good Job, Amen is walking straight for the Croc.. I would have imagined the dog between the croc and Amen.
I would say that Barrett's Fool is as close to danger as Waite's Fool is. True, the dog in Waite's Fool is making a little more noise than the dog in Barrett's Fool. But the whole message of the Fool is that one has to walk head-first (or foot-first in this instance) into adversity in order to begin the journey of the Majors. If the dog stopped Amun from encountering Set, there would be no story.

Rodney



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