Astrological Reading Methods for Pips

Bernice

Mel: First tomato coming your way...... Splat!

These two House meanings appear to keep switching themselves about with regard to 'parents'. If using one of the 'older' house meanings:

4th House = Cancer: Home and Mother. (amongst other things)
10th House = Capricorn. Career and Father (amongst other things)

But even though reading via different houses, we both were able to discern the Querents 'very concerned condition'. A common occurance with astrology/astrologers. :)

Come on Frelkins - what did you say? We may as well all sit on the fence and wait for the tomatos....

Bee
 

Bernice

Eugim my friend,

The origins and history is an important part of these marseille decks, but we are also very interested in using them for 'divining'.

We'd like to do this using an understanding of their origins. The two interests run parallel.

Bee :)

EDIT: Where did your post go Eugim ?!?!
 

Melanchollic

Bernice said:
Mel: First tomato coming your way...... Splat!

These two House meanings appear to keep switching themselves about with regard to 'parents'. If using one of the 'older' house meanings:

4th House = Cancer: Home and Mother. (amongst other things)
10th House = Capricorn. Career and Father (amongst other things)


Bee

Thank for the tomato! :)

I've never seen mothers in the fourth. Interesting. I'm going by Ptolemy. Lilly, and Bonatti. Most of my books aren't here with me, so that's all I've got right now.

In the Book of Astronomy (1491) Bonatti writes,

"...the fourth house signifies fathers, houses, lands, grandfathers, and all older male ancestors..."

"...(the 10th house) signifies mothers, grandmothers, and all such old female ancestors..."


I wish the astrologers would agree on these things!! Let's beat them up!! })


:love: M
 

Bernice

Yes, they are a #%#$ pain!

Mother - 4th. Home: Because Cancer - Moon
Father - 10. Worldly: Because Capricorn - Saturn.

BUT... I also read somewhere that,

Mum - 10th. Because Cancer = Midday/Summer Solstice.
Dad - 4th. Because Capricorn = Midnight/Winter Solstice.
This seems to have something of a 'craft' association.....

WHO can we rely on???

Bee
 

Bernice

Just remembered. In a much earlier time;
Sun Goddess - Ladies were Solar.
Moon God - Men were Lunar.

At some point they got switched around.

This may have some bearing on the older (but not as old as above) meanings....

Bee
 

frelkins

Bernice said:
WHO can we rely on???

Bee

no one, you have to find what works for you:

"For the newcomer, and even for experienced astrologers, the question of which astrological house system to use is a vexed and often complicated one."

http://www.elysian.co.uk/astrologyhousesystems.htm

In my reading I used http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/houses.htm just because it was clearly written and seemed easy to follow. I'm largely ignorant of astrology, so . . .I won't pretend otherwise. This source says house 4 is mom, house 10 is dad. :)
 

eugim

-I never till now entered here I mean on this M thread,but as you invited me I ...
1-DENIERS: The God mind / Ours mind
2-EPEE : God creating Mind /Ours creating mind
3-BATON: God Verb / Ours action
4-COUPE: God love / Ours love who make the "Mind child" born.
 

frelkins

Bernice said:
Come on Frelkins - what did you say? We may as well all sit on the fence and wait for the tomatos....

i'm more likely to throw kisses, chocolate kisses. . .sigh. ok, i'll post my rejected hash of nonsense. what do i have to lose? I will say it is somewhat similar to Bee's, probably because we use a similar house system.
let me put the pic up again for convenience in this post:
IMG_0177.JPG


Lemme start with the querent, what is his general state in house 1, which is occupied by Il Giudizio, Judgment. Very favorable card! Overall in a time of most positive change. The newly awoken cover their eyes from the blinding light of the angel? Yes, the blinking can be confusing, even anxiety-making, until your eyes adjust, but what you soon see is the clear air of the purest day.

Then I went right for the mother in the 4th house. We are looking at his mother from his point of view here, right, until we turn the chart? So, I ventured to talk about his relationship with his mother based on the 2, which is duality, becoming issuing out of being -- this could describe birth, literally, yes?

A beautiful card decorated with fruit, beribboned and bearing a plaque that says "Painted by Giovanni Vacchetta, Made in Turn, These cards dated in the year 1893." The twin majolica cups, with elaborate lids to conceal their contents and gilt handles, sit sweetly on a gilded platter with a low foot.

This card is emblematic of deep, unspeakably profound love. The cups are closed because no outsider can see into or understand what is in the interior that join these two. They only appear separate from the outside. It is clear he loves his mother very much, and is quite close to her in ways he cannot quite articulate.

Ok, that's the mom background from his point of view. I followed Mel's instruction and turned the chart.

So I re-evaluate the 2 Cups in the light of the mother. She has experienced this profound love herself. Since we are viewing her in context as mother, I believed this card refers to the late father. I believe she loved him with an ineffable depth. This appears to have been the fundamental fact of her interior life, even. I might say she loves him still.

I notice the fruits hanging from the ribbon - grapes, apricots, chestnuts. Grapes of course are symbols of fertility in the Renaissance, and this is true, the mother had 2 children, the querent and his sister.

The apricot is a female symbol - in the middle ages they symbolized the womb, including the pure womb of the Virgin Mary. The chestnuts bursting out of their hairy casings of course are male symbols, standing also for the birth of sons and wisdom as well. But as furthermore symbols of autumn, it is a sad and hard-won wisdom.

This I feel gives us a lot of background information about the mother. I thought it also time to consider Mel's passing idea, but probably this is where i effed it all up.

Mom is surrounded by many cups, and these "pass," right? or add sidenotes to the reading, yes? There aren't any other 2s, just cups. Now in Mel's system, high cups are less good than low cups. But I think of 6 & 7 as good numbers.

The 7 Cups -- a most favorable card, as Pythagoras thought 7 was *the* number -- the 6 Cups, another great card, that offers harmony, and in consideration of the question, could also signify memory. Don't forget the charming, lovable but often interior Queen Cups.

The 6 Cups sits in her 5th house (his 12th), the 5th which represents children, creativity. (sidebar: the 5th house is apparently associated traditionally with Leo, which is the querent's own sign! synchronicity!?!)

I was most seriously interested in this, that a card of harmony, friendship and memory appears in this house - note how the cups are 5 of one kind, but the 6th is different, and has a lid again. What is in that cup? I wanted to know? I felt like this cup represents the "lost" memories of the mother. . .that not all the memories would come back, some would remain "covered."

But 5 cups are open, so I feel like over time, most will. (While discussing this card, the querent noted the cat underneath the table in the card. One of the things his mother had remembered during his visit was the name of his cat! She couldn't remember her daughter's name, but did fish up the cat!)

Note the Queen Cups, with her nice white apron & standing in the kitchen, is in her 10th house, that of career. The querent confirmed that his mother had been a typical 1950s housewife.

Finally that 7, the wonderful 7, sits in her 12th house, that mysterious house of spirit, sacrifice, surrender, even secrets and danger. Notice all the ripe fruits, the flowers vines, the great abundance of wine that flows from the top and cascades into the cups the below.

Grapes, wine, a barrel of wine. A lot of wine here. What does that mean? There's a hidden barrel and then more wine. . .At this point the querent confided that his mother had at one time struggled with alcohol.

But on to the mother's general health. In the house system I was using, this is the 6th house. Since we are turning the chart for the mother, we count backward from your 4th house -- this gives us her 6th house, his 11th. Here we find the 8 Coins.

To my mind, the 8 is the moving, changing number, a finished structure (double 4), but in motion. In Mel's system, high number coins are good. The coins represent physical & material situations, such as money, work, health.

Thus the mother's health is not inherently bad now, but clearly in a state of flux. Notice that these coins are linked by ropes decorated with the tops of peacock feathers. Nowadays to us peacocks symbolize vanity, but in the Renaissance this was not so. Their tails then were understood to mean completion, the harmony of the soul and the body.

They are a good symbol, and from this we can understand that despite the changeable nature of the mother's condition, she is not now in any danger and will likely continue to improve. However the ropes are long, looping, twisted - it will not be an easy road, she will have some occasional setbacks, and I'm not sure she will ever fully recover, sadly. These ropes have no way to "unknot." The mother will always be "tied up" from the results of this stroke.

Speaking of card relationships, I then looked to the Queen Coins here, in his 10th house, her 7th. It is the only other Coin card in the spread. Is there "passage" between these 2 coin cards? Notice how the beautiful queen sits spinning even as she holds up her coin.

The 7th house represents marriage, and I feel we could spend a lot of time talking about the mother's marriage here (spinning - remember she was a hard-working housewife). However what I want to note is the "working" theme of this card.

I believe the mother can help herself improve her condition, with effort. Perhaps the spinning in this card represents some kind of physical therapy?

To the future quickly. Because the house system I was using put "unexpected events" in house 11, this is where I looked for the outcome of the stroke.

Her 11th house is his 6th, in which dwells the Queen of Cups. The Queen of Cups is a lovely, dreamy person, very kind and traditionally loving. In this card she holds a goblet of wine (go back to those grapes on the 2 of Cups) and stands before a spit of delicious roasting chickens. On the table we see a chicken ready for carving, to be served. She is a wonderful nuturing type.

Despite her current illness, your mother will discover and express her innate sweetness and tenderness, even a kind of innocence. The love between the querent and his mother, that was before hidden, unarticulated, covered in the 2 Cups, is now open to seen and shared.

A new aspect of the mother's personality will reveal itself to him, the love he has always wished to access may now be more freely expressed, a new affection will develop or be strengthened.

I think he will actually become closer to the mother, closer than ever, and it will be truly sweet.

I was surprised that this reading seemed so positive in general tone, altho' the circumstances are sad and not really what he wanted to hear.

But anyway, I flubbed this reading, and I would like the group's input as to where and why! Must improve. :( Thanks!
 

Bernice

Frelkins - wonderful indepth investigation. (Beat my quick glance, hands down). But, here's where I think you went out on a limb (effed up :));
The 6 Cups sits in her 5th house (his 12th),
A horoscope (which Mel has based this on), moves in a counter-clockwise direction - like the earth moves through space. So Mums 2nd House has the 6 Batons - her 3rd House has the Queen Cups.... etc.

Try having another little look, going widdershins.....

Aside from the 'directional' technicality, I reckon you did bl**dy marvellous!

Bee
 

frelkins

Sigh. thanks Bee, see I'm hopeless! :( Clearly Camoin's for dunderheads like myself! :)