Tarot of Marseilles help desk (Frequently Asked Questions): Non-History

the four buds on the sword cards

How do you interpret the four buds in the corners on the sword pips? Or I guess I should ask, *do* you?

I've mostly been using my Hadar since I started using Marseille decks so it hasn't been much of an issue being that all four buds are identical in all the cards. However, when I took out my Camoin recently to study it, I noticed that the colors vary. The 2, 3, 4, and 5 are the same color wise, the 6, 7, 9 and 10 are the same, and the eight is different from all of them.

Any ideas?

Lee said:

There are several posts in the History and Using Tarot forums by Rusty Neon and myself, speculating about various methods one might use to read non-illustrated pips.

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For convenience of reference, here are the links to those two threads. The second thread is quite long, but worth scrolling through, as much of its contents isn't repeated elsewhere in this forum.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13467
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1614

Personally, for what it's worth, I find the number-plus-suit method by itself to be not particulary enjoyable. I can read in this way, but it's not as much fun as reading with pictures. Nevertheless I frequently experiment with it. I do find that looking at the flowers, etc. on the cards adds an interesting level, although it still feels like a stretch for me.

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I like to do more than number plus suit, although sometimes it's easier to do number plus suit. It doesn't always work, but I try to go beyond botanical interpretations and try to look for patterns or concepts. For instance, as a simple example, in the 4 of Cups, you can interpret the bottom two cups as being protected by the leaves. This lets you have a "protection" theme for the card, where such an interpretation fits. In such a way, "protection" can be an overlay onto the number plus suit or it can be a independent meaning for the card. Thus, sometimes, the imagery can give a meaning that's arguably independent of number/suit.

Moongold said:

Ahem.................Hahahaha......

I didn't know that. Thanks for the explanation, Lee.

They look so like the Batons. Hmmmmm......... There are real swords on other Swords cards, however.

Where is that saying Call a spade a spade come from? Well ....here they call Batons Swords and make them a different colour.

And can anyone help with the 2 Disks, or are they called Pentacles?

See Lark, if you're still watching . This is hard stuff, and there are no books.


Moongold
(Creeping out to find a book somewhere......)

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The odd sword cards have the upright, real sword in the middle. Other than that the swords are always curved. There is a name for that, but I can't think of it.

The batons are always straight. Wait, let me clarify. They're always straight in the 3 Marseille decks I have......haven't seen them all.

I believe that in Marseille decks the pentacles/disk cards are called coins.

twenty~one said:

The odd sword cards have the upright, real sword in the middle. Other than that the swords are always curved. There is a name for that, but I can't think of it.

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Scimitars?

Originally posted by MoongoldAnd can anyone help with the 2 Disks, or are they called Pentacles?.

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Oops, sorry, Moongold, I missed this question. Yes, the card you're looking at with the banner with the printer's name is indeed the 2 of Coins. That was the convention in those days, to put the printer's name on the 2 of Coins. Interestingly, the "S" shape of the banner may have been the origin of the infinity design on the RWS 2 of Pentacles.

-- Lee

Swords and Coins

twenty~one said:

The odd sword cards have the upright, real sword in the middle. Other than that the swords are always curved. There is a name for that, but I can't think of it.

The batons are always straight. Wait, let me clarify. They're always straight in the 3 Marseille decks I have......haven't seen them all.

I believe that in Marseille decks the pentacles/disk cards are called coins.

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You can call the straight swords -- concrete swords, and the curved swords -- symbolic or schematic swords. If you want to view a curved sword as being concrete, you could view it as a scimitar (pronounced simitir). "An oriental curved sword usually broadening towards the point" (The Canadian Oxford Dictionary).

The Deniers suit of the Marseilles deck is traditionally translated into English as Coins. A "denier" once was a monetary currency unit in France, like the franc would be today. Denier likely comes from the same root word(s) as the old Roman currency unit, the denarius.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer my question.
Except for Rusty who posted a thread and made me cry.
But then I noticed he wasn't talking to me so I blew my nose and kept reading.

You have all made me feel so much better.
Mimers ~I have that book but I never thought to use it with the Marseilles.
I'll try that and see how it goes.
Also thank you for explaining how you go about seeing the Ace of Cups.
Your use of color and number.
All of those things get registered unconsciously when I read intuitively.
So I'm doing that with my scenic tarot already.
You're right I feel like I'm in a good place Spiritually with my tarot.
And I'm very happy with that.
I won't ever feel as passionately about Marseilles as I do for my other RSW type decks.
But I still am curious as to what it's all about.
So that is what made me ask the question.

Moongold~ its all about expanding and learning. That is so true. When I stop learning and asking questions I'm dead.
I got caught up in thinking that there was some magic right way to read with the Marseilles and that I just wasn't seeing it.
Thank you for the beautiful compliment about my reading.
What a confidence booster for me today.
But I think they could have drawn those swords a little better. Hey?

Lee~ I have read with interest the thread you didn't post
Your post was very comforting to me. I think along the same lines as you in this whole Marseilles issue.
My main problem is that the picture opens the intuitive prosses for me and I find Marseilles limiting.
I'm not going to beat myself up over it any more.
It's just the way my brain works.
I can read with Marseilles on an intuitive level and I will continue to experiment with it that way.
One of the women at the Spirit Fair keeps saying to me "Katherine you know you don't even need those cards."
And I understand what she means and what Umbrae means.
It could just as easily be cold cuts or jellybeans or pumpkin seeds.
But like I said the picture sparks it for me.
The tactile feel of the cards the comfort factor of there presents.
Nothing can replace that for me.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.

twent-one~ here's a big (((((hug)))))) for you.
You said it didn't matter how I access the information just that I do and it makes sense for me.
That is how I will look at the Marseille from now on.
With a sense of freedom.
Not from a strict historical tradition.

But I still like my RWS decks best......





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Re: the four buds on the sword cards

twenty~one said:

How do you interpret the four buds in the corners on the sword pips? Or I guess I should ask, *do* you?

I've mostly been using my Hadar since I started using Marseille decks so it hasn't been much of an issue being that all four buds are identical in all the cards. However, when I took out my Camoin recently to study it, I noticed that the colors vary. The 2, 3, 4, and 5 are the same color wise, the 6, 7, 9 and 10 are the same, and the eight is different from all of them.

Any ideas?

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I'll give my general views on this issue. To me, a pictorial feature in a pip card (such as the buds you mention) is significant for interpretation only if it is _unique_ to that card (or that card and at most one other card). However, if the feature repeats on quite a few different cards in the deck, then the feature loses interpretative value for me and becomes ornamental. I haven't been taking into account colour in the Marseilles decks (because of the variety of colour schemes throughout the Marseilles decks), but if you do wish to take into account colour, then the uniqueness of a certain colouring of that feature on one card, e.g., the different colour of the bud in the Camoin 8 of Swords, could result in the buds acquiring interpretative significance in that card. (In the Marteau/Grimaud deck's 8 of Swords, it's the calyx rather than the bud itself that's different in colour from the other swords pips.) That interpretative significance could relate to colour plus bud, or colour plus bud taken in the context of other pictorial details in the card.

A useless aside: Both author Marteau and author de Longchamps interpret the four external flowers and their details in the context of the other details of the card. I was going to quote but I would have ended up translating several hundred words. In any event, their interpretation of the flowers is almost meaningless outside the context of their overall interpretation of the card.

Hi Lark,

I'm so glad you posted your questions about marseilles decks. They are everyone's questions afterall, and you have had some very good answers too. I really hope you give it another try because I found reading with marseilles decks very intuitive, and there is no need to give up your other decks. You can do both, like some of us here.

Re: Swords and Coins

Rusty Neon said:

You can call the straight swords -- concrete swords, and the curved swords -- symbolic or schematic swords. If you want to view a curved sword as being concrete, you could view it as a scimitar (pronounced simitir). "An oriental curved sword usually broadening towards the point" (The Canadian Oxford Dictionary).

The Deniers suit of the Marseilles deck is traditionally translated into English as Coins. A "denier" once was a monetary currency unit in France, like the franc would be today. Denier likely comes from the same root word(s) as the old Roman currency unit, the denarius.

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This is exactly the type of information that I take on board. Now I can think of the Swords as scimitars I feel happier and I have wondered about the word Deniers too. These little snippets of information help give a better understanding without having to plough through pages and pages of history and iconography to get it (although I have done that many times!!).

Thanks Rusty!

When I get to 'play' later on today, I shall surely come up with some more questions for you.

Lark,

It is possible to do both. I work on the assumption that Rome wasn't built in a day and so I dont have to 'get it' right away.Take from it want you want and dont feel pressurised, I am sure you will enjoy it more that way. I love Marseille and feel that I am learning so much now that I have made a start.

J

Ramblings on yods..........

I'm looking through my Camoin deck today, and I'm curious about the different shapes of the yods in the Ace of Swords, Ace of Wands, The Tower, The Moon, and The Sun. Some of them are raindrop-like, some are round, and the Aces....well, I don't know what shape you'd call those.

At any rate, would there be any significance to the various shapes? I can't think of any other than artistic variation, but I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts.