Traps in the Thoth Deck?

Polydeuces

closrapexa said:
And the best thing is that you know you're being seduced, yet you go along with it of your own free will and then ask for more!
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Oh boy - a million times, this. I've often joked that I have somewhat of a marriage with it. Though recently I've been exploring the Waite deck to get a different perspective. It seems like the Thoth deck appreciates this.

Somewhat tangential, but the more I work with the Thoth deck, the more I realize how "here and now" it really communicates. I did one today on a certain ceremony, and it basically just reflected the people in the ceremony, (Two courts w/ the Magus between) beneath, the focus of the ceremony, (3 of Cups & The Tower) & the outcome was the Universe. I just threw my hands up, "Really? Of course you'd say that, you sly fox!" Regardless, it's weird - the Thoth deck feels more loving and gentle than the RWS, though I guess reading with reversals changes some things, too.

But back to the traps - a handful of times I have seen others say (on /r/occult, for example) that he laid some careful traps in the design & perhaps symbolism. I have a hunch that it may be related to the elemental dignities of the courts, but I can't be too sure. Isn't it supposed that in the inner order of Rosicrucian orders that there are certain rearrangements of the Tree of Life? Just ruminating - thanks for all the responses thus far. Assuring, to say the least.
 

ravenest

closrapexa said:
Jokes about masturbation aside, I think that the Thoth does have certain traps, but not in the traditional sense. It obviously involves a certain kind of study, as well as inviting thought experiments and a less formal and traditional experiential learning process. Taken strictly intellectually Thelema is a study in freedom; what it is, how it manifests, when it is truly present and when it is an illusion, the factors that increase or decrease it and many other facets of its definition. Distilled, the Thoth's agenda is liberty and the sanctity of the human experience, and that is all it conveys, but it doesn't tell you how you should manifest that privilege.

Studying it one cannot help but ponder the nature of that freedom, which invites all sorts of other things, like questioning how one could take advantage of the entirety of one's faculties, what is one's basic essence when all extraneous influence is removed, what in life is truly important and what is your own version of a security blanket and many other directions of thought and self-realization.

In that sense the Thoth is as subversive and as dangerous as any revolutionary propaganda, far more even, since it encourages independence, critical thinking, individuality, self reliance and boundless exploration of the self. Were I a dictator it would be among the first things I would ban. On the other hand, if I were a revolutionary I would probably shun it as representative of the decadence of the dictator I was seeking to overthrow.

And the best thing is that you know you're being seduced, yet you go along with it of your own free will and then ask for more!
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That's not a trap in the Thoth deck (who can tell HOW one is going to use it ) ...... that's a trap in the Thoth forum. })
 

ravenest

Polydeuces said:
But back to the traps - a handful of times I have seen others say (on /r/occult, for example) that he laid some careful traps in the design & perhaps symbolism.
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I still dont understand how they are traps .... calculated 'leads' perhaps ... hints of inner meanings ... 'initiated knowledge' (but he says they are in there quiet clearly in places, even with reference to the particular degree), eclectic cross-referencing , etc.

Polydeuces said:
I have a hunch that it may be related to the elemental dignities of the courts, but I can't be too sure.
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Oh ... I left out 'complexities' .... the courts do have a different astrological associations ( ruling astrological degrees that bridge two sign). Some might see 'complexities' as traps or tricks if they dont understand them (Clos' link only had 21 quotes , we could add 'traps' as an answer between 7. and 8. )
Polydeuces said:
Isn't it supposed that in the inner order of Rosicrucian orders that there are certain rearrangements of the Tree of Life? Just ruminating - thanks for all the responses thus far. Assuring, to say the least.
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Depends what 'Rosicrucian Order' you mean. In the G.D. and some Crowley related Orders the Rosicrucian Degrees ARE an 'Inner Order' . There are different versions of the Tree and some other Rosicrucian Orders may use them, or advocate study of the different types.

Personally , in my own 'personal inner order' I have my own re-arrangement of the Tree ( but its more psycho-astrological than Kabbalistic).

Still havent seen a trap though through all of this though.

The whole system warns one against THE traps though. For example, in addressing the elements ( and their forces and their entitification ) :

" So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul, and fit thyself to command the Spirits of the elements. For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee."

Even if one was attracted to practice magick from being involved in the Book of Thoth, the preliminary Liber on practice says this right at the beginning:

http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib6.html points 1 - 5.

Full of warnings against the traps.

Next time someone says that I guess the only way to know is ask THEM what they mean .... and I bet its some sort of confusion or conspiracy theory.



To add my ruminations : Last week I presented a PP on Hermetics, towards the end there were some image collages of symbols showing some things Hermetics represented ... one of the group called out " Illuminati! Thats from the Illuminati! " with a tone of shock or something.

Me; "What's that?"

"WELL ! ... its at least ... Masonic."

"Yes it is."

" And you are okay with that?"

"Yes I am, why ?"

.... .... silence ... I assume he wasn't game to cough up his poorly worked out and ill-informed theory .... but I will be tagged ... OHHH, I will be tagged alright !
 

Zephyros

Well, duh, obviously you're okay with it, you're part of the conspiracy.

If we're talking about traps in the symbolism, though, most of it is standard Golden Dawn at its core. Maybe they had traps and blinds set up. However, although my research hasn't been exhaustive, the only references to the supposedly impenetrable blinds the GD set up are secondary and quite conspiratorial, and with no facts to back them up. The ultimate political detonation of the GD also suggests that any secrets couldn't really have been kept.

There are certain things that are conspicuously missing from the Book of Thoth, though; this or that symbol that seems important but Crowley doesn't say a word about it. He may mention them in other books but even if he doesn't, I wouldn't see it as a blind. His book, his deck, he can write whatever he wants, and maybe that symbol bored him. I dunno. Anyway, it would be a bad blind, since those symbols' absence actually highlights them, and makes you go looking.

Ironically, people accuse Crowley of so many things he didn't do, while ignoring others who did do those things. The RWS, for example, is deliberately more misleading, but in many ways Waite has been overshadowed by his own deck, except among serious aficionados (who are also, of course, part of the conspiracy!), so there's no point in levelling accusations toward an unknown.
 

Zephyros

ravenest said:
That's not a trap in the Thoth deck (who can tell HOW one is going to use it ) ...... that's a trap in the Thoth forum. })
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Slaves shall serve. Even if your Will happens to be subservience, it still stems from freedom.

Incidentally, this is also the name of a single by Behemoth, if anyone wants some Thelemically inspired death metal. I don't.
 

Richard

Polydeuces said:
.......Isn't it supposed that in the inner order of Rosicrucian orders that there are certain rearrangements of the Tree of Life? Just ruminating - thanks for all the responses thus far. Assuring, to say the least.
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That sounds like something Christine Payne-Towler might pull out of her . . . imagination, although it is known that even her most creative conjectures have a tendency to masquerade as hard fact.

If some inner order of a secret society uses, say, the Ari or Gra Tree, I'm quite sure I wouldn't know. The Kircher seems to be the most commonly used Tree in the Hermetic Tradition. The only Rosicrucian order of which I know anything at all uses the Kircher, and it ain't no secret for sure.
 

theboomz

Yeah, what the heck is a "trap", come on op!
 

ravenest

OP doesnt know ... its what people told Op ... we need to find out from those that declare it so.

It works like this; "What HER! Ohh, I wouldnt go near her if I where you."

'Why?"

"Well, that wouldnt be polite to reveal the details ". ;)
 

seedcake

closrapexa said:
There are certain things that are conspicuously missing from the Book of Thoth, though; this or that symbol that seems important but Crowley doesn't say a word about it. He may mention them in other books but even if he doesn't, I wouldn't see it as a blind. His book, his deck, he can write whatever he wants, and maybe that symbol bored him. I dunno. Anyway, it would be a bad blind, since those symbols' absence actually highlights them, and makes you go looking.
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To be honest, I don't see such thing as a trap. It's highly interesting and making you to do a research.

I really like discussion here and few posts made me sure to get Thoth deck and collect even more books. Thank you for the inspiration.
 
Small spread, looking for opinions When people meet and sparks fly