What is the Y on the magician staff

Teheuti

LRichard said:
So the bird on the table may refer to Scorpio, or maybe not.
Thank you. That's what I meant. To me, the bird on the table seems more like a dove than a hawk or eagle.

The Tree of Life is from the Kabbalah, in which Waite was very interested, and much of Kabbalah involves a heavy use of gematria.
Do you have information on where Waite used it in any depth - as we do with Mathers and Crowley? He wrote a lot about other things having to do with Kabbalah—including an entire book on the subject.

Take a look at Paul Foster Case's writings on the Tarot. He basically reveals what Waite tried to hide, and it does involve Hebrew orthography and gematria.
Case was definitely into gematria. I'm just not familiar with where Waite got into the subject.

If you have an aversion to Hebrew, you might try to take a little time to learn about the Hebrew alphabet
Why do you assume that? Admittedly, my knowledge of Hebrew is pretty elementary, although I do know the alphabet.
 

brightcrazystar

Let Waite speak for himself, with his proposed cleverness.

Gematria is used in at least five of his books to clarify mystic understandings. He uses number and symbol habitually to progress ideas of mysticism. It was something he was examined in before he passed from the "0" grade of Golden Dawn to the First. This Order was so important, he schismed to take control of his vision of it, and Pixie went with him. She made him, therfore, her Chief Adept. Then she converted to Catholicism later.

The Major Arcanum is all Inner Order, and word for word mostly. Look at the 11th chapter of the second book of the Sacred Book of Abramelin in relation to this card. Ver batim! The Minor was almost all Pixie's brainchild. The Major was the Key he was publishing, for Second Order work.

Here is Waite on the Magus:

The Magus, Magician, or juggler, the caster of the dice and mountebank, in the world of vulgar trickery. This is the colportage interpretation, and it has the same correspondence with the real symbolical meaning that the use of the Tarot in fortune-telling has with its mystic construction according to the secret science of symbolism.

Basically the fortune-teller who reads this as a charlatan IS the same as the charlatan they read in the card. But, there is a use in "mystic construction" (i.e. Building. The builders of the Temple) according to the Secret Science of Symbolism.

The ritual affirms this with the Hierophant saying before the integration of the Officers of the Temple, "For by names and images are powers awakened, and reawakened."

The powers having been awakened. The Magician is standing before the Altar of the Universe invoking Osiris Onniphorus before the Mystic Repast in the Hall of Nepophytes where the Mystic Construction occurs. The Magician is the very top of the cube of energies the hall represents, the pinnacle of Aleph, the principle of vertical definitions of Above (Magician) and Below (Priestess). The Altar of the Universe in this card (his table) is the World Card. Look at the corners of his altar appearing in that card. Some of this you would never know until you had Adeptus Minor papers.


Waite continues:
I should add that many independent students of the subject, following their own lights, have produced individual sequences of meaning in respect of the Trumps Major, and their lights are sometimes suggestive, but they are not the true lights.

Frankly, he says even people who might *kinda* get it, don't until it is really shown to you.

The "true light" he infers is the Hidden Light of Hermetic Science, borne by the Kerux (The Mercurial Officer in the Golden Dawn), who Thrice tests you for Admission with his Rod. He bears the light, though you see it not until you seek the Day. He lifts the rod to banish, to Salute the Hierophant, and to declare new Neophytes and to lead the building of energy in the temple through a game of Follow the Leader called the Mystic Circumambulation.

He says some in the dark get a glimmer of that light, but it is only the True Light for those that have have ... Truth also has a STRONG reference to Aemeth, and the who of the Temple dedication to Truth, which is essentially Justice. Beth and Lamed is 32, for the 32 paths of Wisdom one of the most prominent models Waite employs, and he uses Gematria and Kabalah to support that.

He continues:

For example, Éliphas Lévi says that the Magus signifies that unity which is the mother of numbers; others say that it is the Divine Unity; and one of the latest French commentators considers that in its general sense it is the will.

Unity is Achad, Achad is the Key of the Lord of the Universe, the Initiates adore.

MOTHER OF NUMBERS is Ma'at. Truth. Number is the highest plane of truth in Masonry, Kabalah, and Golden Dawn. It guides those who have been guided to Light By those who follow the "true Lights." Those True Lights are the Lights of the Temple, The Lamp of the Kerux, The Lights of the Pillars, and the Lamp of the mystic repast, the sacrament of Initiates and Neophytes.

Where he got all this imagery is from the Golden Dawn description of the Second Order work she was never privy to. It is, literally in this case, the second book of Abramelin, Chapter 11. with a few other considerations, such as in Moina Mather's work where the Table in question should be the table of shewbread adorned with the Kerubs or elements of Golden Dawn work.

Read Chapter 11, it is the very word for word description of the image minus a few areas for occult symbolism not in the Abramelin Description, but heavy in Golden Dawn symbolism. Both were in the Golden Dawn, and he was an adept. She also, by his journals, understood it as a metaphor for symbolism and word and number meditations as key to Spiritual evolution and personal fulfillment. Not a stretch they used all that in this deck. Most of it is published now, and openly published for purchase.
 

Richard

Teheuti said:
.....Why do you assume that? Admittedly, my knowledge of Hebrew is pretty elementary, although I do know the alphabet.
I apologize.
 

Teheuti

I believe you are referring to this:

from Abremelin:
He who commenceth this Operation in solitude can elect a place according unto his pleasure; where there is a small wood. . . . Around the Altar at the distance of seven paces you shall prepare a hedge of flowers, plants, and green shrubs. . . .

The second habiliments will be a Shirt or Tunic of linen, large and white, with well and properly made sleeves. The other Robe will be of Crimson or Scarlet Silk with Gold, and it should not be longer than just unto the knees, with sleeves of similar stuff. . . . You shall have upon your head a beautiful Crown or woven Fillet of Silk and Gold. . . .

You shall also have a Wand of Almond-tree wood, smooth and straight, of the length of about from half an ell to six feet.

I eliminated a lot of stuff that doesn't match - the altar is a cabinet, there is a censor on the altar, etc., etc. But, close enough.

It's been discussed on aeclectic before, but is always worth bringing up again. Thank you for that and for all the GD ritual references.
 

re-pete-a

brightcrazystar said:
Gematria is used in at least five of his books to clarify mystic understandings. He uses number and symbol habitually to progress ideas of mysticism. It was something he was examined in before he passed from the "0" grade of Golden Dawn to the First. This Order was so important, he schismed to take control of his vision of it, and Pixie went with him. She made him, therfore, her Chief Adept. Then she converted to Catholicism later.

The Major Arcanum is all Inner Order, and word for word mostly. Look at the 11th chapter of the second book of the Sacred Book of Abramelin in relation to this card. Ver batim! The Minor was almost all Pixie's brainchild. The Major was the Key he was publishing, for Second Order work.

Here is Waite on the Magus:



Basically the fortune-teller who reads this as a charlatan IS the same as the charlatan they read in the card. But, there is a use in "mystic construction" (i.e. Building. The builders of the Temple) according to the Secret Science of Symbolism.

The ritual affirms this with the Hierophant saying before the integration of the Officers of the Temple, "For by names and images are powers awakened, and reawakened."

The powers having been awakened. The Magician is standing before the Altar of the Universe invoking Osiris Onniphorus before the Mystic Repast in the Hall of Nepophytes where the Mystic Construction occurs. The Magician is the very top of the cube of energies the hall represents, the pinnacle of Aleph, the principle of vertical definitions of Above (Magician) and Below (Priestess). The Altar of the Universe in this card (his table) is the World Card. Look at the corners of his altar appearing in that card. Some of this you would never know until you had Adeptus Minor papers.


Waite continues:


Frankly, he says even people who might *kinda* get it, don't until it is really shown to you.

The "true light" he infers is the Hidden Light of Hermetic Science, borne by the Kerux (The Mercurial Officer in the Golden Dawn), who Thrice tests you for Admission with his Rod. He bears the light, though you see it not until you seek the Day. He lifts the rod to banish, to Salute the Hierophant, and to declare new Neophytes and to lead the building of energy in the temple through a game of Follow the Leader called the Mystic Circumambulation.

He says some in the dark get a glimmer of that light, but it is only the True Light for those that have have ... Truth also has a STRONG reference to Aemeth, and the who of the Temple dedication to Truth, which is essentially Justice. Beth and Lamed is 32, for the 32 paths of Wisdom one of the most prominent models Waite employs, and he uses Gematria and Kabalah to support that.

He continues:



Unity is Achad, Achad is the Key of the Lord of the Universe, the Initiates adore.

MOTHER OF NUMBERS is Ma'at. Truth. Number is the highest plane of truth in Masonry, Kabalah, and Golden Dawn. It guides those who have been guided to Light By those who follow the "true Lights." Those True Lights are the Lights of the Temple, The Lamp of the Kerux, The Lights of the Pillars, and the Lamp of the mystic repast, the sacrament of Initiates and Neophytes.

Where he got all this imagery is from the Golden Dawn description of the Second Order work she was never privy to. It is, literally in this case, the second book of Abramelin, Chapter 11. with a few other considerations, such as in Moina Mather's work where the Table in question should be the table of shewbread adorned with the Kerubs or elements of Golden Dawn work.

Read Chapter 11, it is the very word for word description of the image minus a few areas for occult symbolism not in the Abramelin Description, but heavy in Golden Dawn symbolism. Both were in the Golden Dawn, and he was an adept. She also, by his journals, understood it as a metaphor for symbolism and word and number meditations as key to Spiritual evolution and personal fulfillment. Not a stretch they used all that in this deck. Most of it is published now, and openly published for purchase.


With my personal understandings of how the mind operates ,
The collective conscious is not selective as to who tunes in ,as long as they tune in. The more veils placed before the flow the more trouble is encountered.
Knowing someone else's knowledge does not automatically bestow upon the recipient the abilities of the source of that knowledge.

The simple mind of the child is said to be the better conduit .
I have encountered many intellectuals that declare their understandings as right.
These same mentioned have shown that the essence of open ness of mind that allows the flow to happen is hindered by the noise of an industrious mind, and block the flow that doesn't conform to preordained rules.


Learn'd information does not always allow the holder to be able to use it . Though at the manifested level it can draw power to create for itself awe from others. That can be it's limit of magic.

The letting go of all and becoming as a child(open mind )seems to me to be the key.

There are many ,many ,talented card users. There are many charlatans cloaked in knowledge.
There are many ,many, learned initiated occultists. There are many charlatans also cloaked in robes of knowledge.

Every walk of life has the same amount of of good and bad.

The roads are many. Not all roads are heading in the directions desired.
Nothing is set in cement.

It's the hearts essence in the end . That's why Huberus is said to be the highest on the list of no,no's

It's not necessary to be a full book on the Kaballah in order to use these cards as intended. The majick is already placed on them to pave the way.
Children can utilize them.
 

Richard

re-pete-a said:
.....It's not necessary to be a full book on the Kaballah in order to use these cards as intended. The majick is already placed on them to pave the way.
Children can utilize them.

You may be correct, re-pete-a. However, I don't think anyone has claimed that knowledge of certain magickal traditions makes one a better Tarot reader. This thread is about certain details in the Magician card in the RWS deck, not card reading.

Anyhow, Waite didn't originally conceive of this deck as a divination tool. It was designed for philosophical use by Golden Dawn initiates.
 

brightcrazystar

re-rete-a,

I liked what you wrote. It is more like my feelings. Don't think I consider my every extrapolation authoritative. But alot of evidence shows what Waite was like, and what inspired him. I wrote another wall of text, alot of which you or others know, but it completes the thought for me and might be of use to someone searching this forum. So here goes:

I was just expressing a feeling of what A.E. Waite might have thought, in the spirit of A.E. Waite, who had no love for divination, and felt it was a waste as an Adept of the Golden Dawn. Tarot "reading" was exactly the kind of thing he disdained, and so it fits into his description of the card.

To him, The Major Arcanum were a map of Initiation to be produced, in accordance with guidelines created by Moina and Samuel Mathers. He took a fellow Initiate, and fueled his desire to create a deck with her ablities as an artist. He is clear he "had" to "monitor" her, and in some cased specifically direct her art directly to make the Major Arcanum as structured as it is. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume he would have approved the images personally, to the detail, as these were done for HIS PERSONAL USE, which he later hoped to standardize.

The Minor Arcanum is Pixie's brainchild and love for Tarot but it pulls a LOT from Book T, which in turn pulls alot from other Tarot reading conventions. The general joy she got from beign an Artist in the greatest and most tragic senses of the word. The Major is the brainchild of Moina Mathers, and her husband who was a gentle guide not as controlling as Waite was to Smith. More like a gruff cheerleader and eager study buddy. Waite was more like an employer and instructor. Of the two, neither seemed to be concerned with "reading". These were conduits or an Active force, not surveying tools.

His words represent his view, not mine. He was a superiorist. He believed Initiation *magics* you, by your own will, into more than other people. I outlined and commented on them according to some rather obvious allusions in his writing on the card according to the Initiation path he was on in regards to this work.

My path was through the Golden Dawn, but I found the ecclectic past and heritage that I have and the independent spirit I foster is different. Conforming is not quite my path. I am more about trail blazing. Please do not mistake me for a superiorist. I seek in lectures to constantly liberate their work from the mindset that imagines this to be true of the whole Order but was in fact mostly only a myth kept alive by misunderstanding of heavy speech and masonic rhetoric.

A.E. Waite LOVED this. He was an exception to the fact most Adepts of the G.D. regarded others not in their order as Masters and Adepts of note to be learned from and shared with. He was an Adept who refused to support , for example, Aleister Crowley in becoming an Adept, because of his personal life. All Adepts of a Temple have to agree to the progress of an Initiate. Waite firmly denied another that right. I would never do that, say another is not an Adept, or not ready. He was a bigot in a bigotted time. It may have been from default, because though studious and entrepenurial, he was far from independent of mind or will. Though he was *strong* of will.

When Crowely was taken through the Portal and raised as an Adept, even oversees in France, Waite was furious, and started to strengthen his plans of mutiny from Mathers. We have no idea how Pixie felt about this, but she went with Mathers, and then basically becamed disillusioned with him. He lacked the calibur of a man like Westcott, or the Passion of a man like Mathers. By default she became Catholic, the only religion SPECIFICALLY the Golden Dawn ciphers are instructed to not allow. It breaks my heart to think of her life of optimism and beauty crushed under the boot of conflict, but she left of her own accord. She was not an Adept when she left with Waite. He may have never Raised her from what he says of her in his Bio. That is a GODDAMN tragedy.

My path is far more complex that one allowing a moralist from Victorian England to define it, and in general holds that ALL of us (every man and every woman) are at the point of Realization in our own time, and by no efforts of anyone else. Maybe not even our own. I am not here to be the Master, I am here to share. I am still learning what people here have, and what to share. I am new here. If I overshare, it is my hope, people get what they need, or at least something they can use. There is nothing to instruct people in unless they seek to use a common language. This language is inherent but not required of Tarot Diviniation. Tarot is akin to the modern Senet in my Tradition. It is a game that can be played with the "Dead" or one's ancestors or passed or extraplanar teachers. This is its Key Purpose.

This tarot is the deck of those who use that common language. Moina Mathers and her husband were the ultimate guides of the Tarot Imagery and the guide that guided Waite. It also the most popular deck on the planet and not everyone reads it the same way. There is also all kinds of stream of consciousness Pamela Coleman Smith added as she excellently rendered the images in her own brilliant light. Most of these were "allowed" by Waite in the Minor Arcanum, not so in the Majors. His wording of HER efforts in his autobiography, with his guidance and near criminal patronage (IMHO), is key to understanding how haughty he really was.

It's not the entirety of Tarot for everyone, but it is the KEY of TARO, and I share less than I see in this regard. I do this for people who might look for this KEY. I didn't study [edit: "just learn this key by reading."] this key, it was given me by mentors who I studied with and are now gone, people who studied the works before they were published and their students.

We approach Tarot as an oracle that can lie, if improperly approached. It can also reveal the Key of TARO. Fix the variables, get the answers, and test them for truth, without reinterpretation. This is "testing" a spirit. This is generally the way people approach Ouija, for example, but not Tarot. As cards become letters with meanings and interrelations in Tarot imagery, sometimes it helps to just a letter based oracle.

It is amazing how people believe that the Ouija board can connect you to a lying Spirit, but Tarot cannot. My Tradition teaches ways to connect to Mentors through Tarot, and Test them. With no limits on their physical form, it allows the immortal component of their self in the "Azoth" to compel other components of their self to be the Oracle that Tarot accesses. IF they be adept in using their will to focus their Body of Light. The test is EXPLICIT, not interpretative. If the test is not passed, the reading doesn't continue unless the spirit correctly identifies what it actually is. The question of "Isn't it your angel or higher self?" is moot. Those are exactly what brought your mentors into your life, and are the key to your ancestry. So the answer is yes, but they need a "Kerux" - one to appear first living, and then past, to become the one who gives you the truth from the Other Side. This is the Hermit. Solomon in Exile. The bearer of the Lamp of "Hermetic Science" and the Staff of "Directing Power."

Intuition becomes key in seeing what overlapping meanings are relevant in the interrelation of the cards. ONCE you have connected to the Spirit you hope to seek out. There are other oracles for more surreal meaning, like stream of conscious drawing. Alot of decks include this kind of element, which is generally only prominent in the Minor Arcanum of Smith's images. Waite pretty much dismissed these. But stream of conscious is more prominent in other decks, and not all have a same focus:

It is why I don't go all Qabala and G.D. in threads about the Shadowscapes or Tarot of the Wacky Grandmother, even if these are RWS variants such as Deviant Moon. "Omg the Fool is in his pajamas and chased by fish instead of a dog!," doesn't really help until it matters to the people who speak "the language of TARO" to see why the artist chooses to make the difference. The question is does the symbol set you see hold true with the spirits you connect to. If not, usually I abandon it. The deck may hold truth, but it is not in a language I see by instruction. It is mystical, but not applicable by other things TARO is used for. *SOMETIMES*, I adopt it, and make it part of my own language, which is not the same as the G.D. in every regard.

But in general, if I permanently adopt something new, it is something I produce, not someone else. Not always. I am not the mother of invention or innovation, and other people do cool things all the time. For example, Koxari cards hold a VERY useful addition to this which is alluded to in Tarot, but awkwardly. It adds a means by which the cards allow a spirit to direct you to specific measuring and equipment they will use to convey their message besides in the deck. AWESOME! I therefore ordered these, and am looking to use them for some quality assurance.

BTW - I do not write walls of text to people I don't like. I love to read. Giving someone something to read is my greatest expression of friendship or Respect!
 

Teheuti

The deck that Waite ultimately commissioned as a truly occult and mystical deck is known as the Trinick deck, and it was only distributed to members of his Fellowship.

I believe the RWS deck was meant to serve double-duty. He was a prolific author of popular occult books and this deck and book were part of that public output through his regular publisher. He hoped it would sell well and make him a lot of money. The GD symbolism is there but not obvious to those unfamiliar with it. And he went out of his way not to break his oaths.

The Major Arcana was also meant to elucidate his own ideas about the 'Secret Tradition,' with allusions to his other books on Masonry, Rosicrucians, alchemy, the Grail, etc. - even more than the GD tradition.

The Minor Arcana especially drew from his earlier writings on divinatory tarot and cartomancy (even while it had additional levels of meaning that I've mentioned on the forum & talk about on my blog).

I don't think he had any doubts that those who were gifted would use the cards for fortune-telling and would do it well - as did his dear friend (who later became his 2nd wife), Soror Una (aka Mary Broadbent Schofield). He said about her that she was an “adept at cartomancy, without pretending to regard it as other than a rather curious diversion.” And then he describes an occasion when she “turned out the cards” that decided him to leave Tunbridge Wells for London, since, as he said, “[I was] pre-assured ex hypothesi that I should hear something very much to my advantage in a business way” [Shadows of Light and Thought]. So, when he wanted mundane advice from the tarot, he went to Soror Una, just as Yeats would go to his equally gifted Uncle George Pollexfen.

Waite describes an appreciation of skills like those of Soror Una, in PKT:
“The pictorial devices . . . will prove a great help to intuition. The mere numerical powers and bare words of the meanings are insufficient by themselves; but the pictures are like doors which open into unexpected chambers, or like a turn in the open road with a wide prospect beyond.”

And, “In proportion as this gift [of intuition] is present in a particular case, the specific meanings recorded by past cartomancists will be disregarded in favour of the personal appreciation of card values.”

It was a great disappointment to him that he did not have a gift for either clairvoyance or visions (except for a brief period when illness and drugs opened the door for him). But, he appreciated (or envied) it in others. Sometimes his less-than-laudatory comments are evidence of that envy.
 

Richard

In my opinion, the deck would not have been a commercial success were it not for Pixie's artistic contribution and her designs for the Minors. If she really died in poverty, it would seem very unjust.

If, after much disillusionment, she needed something more stable than the turn-of-the-century magical societies to hang onto, then Roman Catholicism may not have been the worst choice. Even Waite, in one of his books, described himself as a Uniat Catholic.
 

lucifall

brightcrazystar said:
BTW - I do not write walls of text to people I don't like. I love to read. Giving someone something to read is my greatest expression of friendship or Respect!

Thanks Brightcrazystar,
I like to read what you write, but i have to dose and absorb it homeopatic.
It should be nice to read your findings about Pam's minors, related to book T!
Thanks for being here, and show us knowledge we should not be able to get otherwise.

Luci