Tarot of Ceremonial Magic Study Group - The Magus

ravenest

foolMoon said:
I saw it while scanning through Gems from the Equinox. I cannot find it now, because the book is so massive. I will find it through time. I mentioned it just from my memory, because if anyone has read Crowley for many years, then he would know about it.

I have read Crowley for many years and I do know about it. It isnt the 'it' I am contending, it is THIS bit :

" ...and each and everyone must find his / her own star, which is right for them."

Maybe I am reading the words wrong here ? To me that means one finds a star that they think is right for them. I would say, find the star that IS your star .

Look at it this way, with astrology, one does not read all the signs and go "Oh I like that Aquarius energy, I think I will 'adopt ' Aquarius as my sign. Ya gottta find out what your sign IS.

maybe its just the loose wording ?

In any case, I am well familiar with the concept, we did a 6 months Thelemic stella yoga workshop here years back putting the whole theory and sources together.

Hint - start with Marcilio Ficino's 'Star Magic' .

foolMoon said:
Also have a read Liber DXXXVI, which is interesting.

Have a read of it ? I worked with it for years. Tghis is the next stage I would recommend after Ficino ; ( Liber Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia ).

The next stage is Liber NV http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib11.html

Then working with Liber 963, put it all together - Stella Yoga.

foolMoon said:
Tropical astrology? Doesn't relate to stars? What does it relate to?

12 equal segments of 30 degrees (the 'signs' ) starting from the astronomical equinoctial point , it uses 'wandering stars', the planets and ONE star, the Sun.

But here is the thing, to find the 'star' you are in the 'Thelemic system' (and this part is the theory of 'famous thelemic authors ' ... see 'The Pathworkings of Alieister Crowley' by .... ? (is it DuQuette and Hyatt and someone else ), they say to find (not select) your star by examining your natal chart, check the rising SIGN and using the PLANET that rules that as your 'STAR' .... or to use your astrological rising sign to work with the appropriate chapter in Liber 963.

Clearly neither is a Star as such. But why do I insists this wrong and it should be a sidereal application? Mostly because the original astrology was sidereal, all other astrology is sidereal ( except for modern western tropical astrology - ie. the popular sort in use today) , the original GD and Liber T astrology was sidereal and Crowley himself ( at least in Liber Yod ) directs us to 'real locations in time and space and not tropical ones ;

Liber Yod II. 6, " .... Let him face the actual position of each planet in the heavens at the time of his working."

Also, different from The 'AC pathworking book, I also content one's star need not be restricted to the ecliptic.

ravenest

How about we move on to the 3 boxed images at the bottom of the card ?

(It is what makes the deck pretty different from others.)

Zephyros

ravenest said:
How about we move on to the 3 boxed images at the bottom of the card ?

(It is what makes the deck pretty different from others.)

I agree. In any case general Thelemic discussions really do deserve a thread of their own because of the scope of the discussion. I'll see tomorrow if it is possible to separate these posts so that the topic can be discussed better.

In any case:

HB: Bet: This is a composition of three separate forms. The central one is a vertical wand with a three pointed crown at top.To the right is a simple vesica. To the left is a Shiva-lingam consisting of a round top vertical shaft on a base.(Tools of the Magus).

HB: Bet: This is a complex and decorative device. It is delineated on left and right by two curved swords,they are straight and curve in only at the top, crosshilted with serifs at bottom. There is an "equals" sign immediately below each hilt.bBetween the points at top is a thin crescent,horns up. A large and at dish-shaped crescent, points up is at bottom, the lower arc broken by two pairs of very short transverse lines to right and left. There is a dot asymmetrically below the lower crescent to the left (possibly a printing fault). There is a small wiggling crescent shaped line like a smiling mouth above this. Three wavy lines are vertical on and to either side of center. Two dots like eyes complete the sigil between the upper ends of these lines. The whole gure is like a face emerging from smoke out of a bowl and between the two "swords".

Both sigils seem to suggest somewhat accepted meanings for the Magus, read between the lines. There is somewhat of a juxtaposition between the astrological and Hebrew attributions since "house" would suggest stability while Mercury suggests movement. However, it makes sense if one keeps in mind that the only constant in the universe is change.

Abrac

I made some large scans of the two sigils.

foolMoon

ravenest said:
12 equal segments of 30 degrees (the 'signs' ) starting from the astronomical equinoctial point , it uses 'wandering stars', the planets and ONE star, the Sun.

They are all stars, the Sun, the Planets and the Moon .... etc etc. They are just different in size, brightness, orbits or fixed position .... they are all stars.

Is tropical astrology not the astrology which works on the passage of the Sun along the 12 zodiacal positions rather than the fixed constellations of the Sideral astrology?

How is it not related to the stars?

ravenest said:
But here is the thing, to find the 'star' you are in the 'Thelemic system' (and this part is the theory of 'famous thelemic authors ' ... see 'The Pathworkings of Alieister Crowley' by .... ? (is it DuQuette and Hyatt and someone else ), they say to find (not select) your star by examining your natal chart, check the rising SIGN and using the PLANET that rules that as your 'STAR' .... or to use your astrological rising sign to work with the appropriate chapter in Liber 963.

Clearly neither is a Star as such. But why do I insists this wrong and it should be a sidereal application? Mostly because the original astrology was sidereal, all other astrology is sidereal ( except for modern western tropical astrology - ie. the popular sort in use today) , the original GD and Liber T astrology was sidereal and Crowley himself ( at least in Liber Yod ) directs us to 'real locations in time and space and not tropical ones ;

Liber Yod II. 6, " .... Let him face the actual position of each planet in the heavens at the time of his working."

Also, different from The 'AC pathworking book, I also content one's star need not be restricted to the ecliptic.

I am not sure what your talking about here. To me, "finding your own star" sounds like finding your high consciousness from the plane of Assiah to Yetzirah to Briah and all the way to Aziluth, but it is said in allegory of the stars.

ravenest

foolMoon said:
They are all stars, the Sun, the Planets and the Moon .... etc etc. They are just different in size, brightness, orbits or fixed position .... they are all stars.

So a planets Moon is the same as a star now ?

This just gets better and better doesnt it

foolMoon said:
Is tropical astrology not the astrology which works on the passage of the Sun along the 12 zodiacal positions rather than the fixed constellations of the Sideral astrology?

You have such an unclear way of putting things together ! I cant answer that question, instead I will make a statement ;

Tropical astrology IS a system which uses the path of the Sun (the ecliptic) along the zodiacal SIGNS (not positions ) , which are 12 equal 30 degree segments of a #60 degree circle starting at 0 degrees at the Equinocatl point. It does not use constellations at all and the signs of tropical astrology are not alighned or equal to the constellations of astronomy or sidereal astrology.

foolMoon said:
How is it not related to the stars?

How ? It just isnt .... how it became so is a long story . Why ? Because tropical astrology is related to 12 equal 30 degree segments of the ecliptic, not the stars, they are just sections of arbitrary areas of empty space around the earth that the Sun , Moon and planets 'pass through' in a geocentric mental 'trick'.

foolMoon said:
I am not sure what your talking about here.

Its basic astrology actually.

foolMoon said:
To me, "finding your own star" sounds like finding your high consciousness from the plane of Assiah to Yetzirah to Briah and all the way to Aziluth, but it is said in allegory of the stars.

yeah, that sounds good ... what has that to do with tropical astrology ?

foolMoon

ravenest said:
So a planets Moon is the same as a star now ?

This just gets better and better doesnt it

Yes, it seems just the case

Your post sounded like as if they are some sort of different entity. Astronomically speaking, the Moon, the planets and the Sun, they are all stars.

ravenest said:
You have such an unclear way of putting things together ! I cant answer that question, instead I will make a statement ;

That was my feeling against your writings. Everyone knows what the Tropical astrology is. But they would wonder why you brought it into this thread, when we are talking about Thelemic deity, Qabalistic Worlds and human consciousness.

By the way, I think your understanding on Tropical astrology doesn't seem right. All Astrology works with stars and their positions and movements, be it Sideral or Tropical. The difference lies in whether they focus on the fixed stars positions (Sideral) or the Suns passage of the 12 zodiacal positions around the earth (Tropical).

ravenest said:
yeah, that sounds good ... what has that to do with tropical astrology ?

I was just wondering what was your point brining in Tropical astrology into this thread.

Zephyros

Moderator Note:

Listen, people... this is getting out of hand. It is impossible to conduct a study group while discussing everything under the sun except the deck. Not every thread can turn into a mega-thread discussing everything about everything. I'll accept that that the general Thelemic discussion was related... but there is such a thing as being given a hand and taking an arm. In the Thoth forum especially discussions tend to diverge more than in other forums and this is alright but at least try to make an effort to respect that leniency and help in conducting these discussions. This thread, as did the previous one, has reached a point where even on-topic posts are swallowed up by unrelated things, and that's not fair to anyone. Twelve pages of posts with only a fraction being actually about the card is not keeping the balance.

Keep this in mind in this and future threads. No posts have been removed... yet.

smw

Abrac said:
I made some large scans of the two sigils.

Thanks Abrac, helps the eyesight.

smw

Qliphothic Genii: Baratchial- (face sigil)

This is a description of the Qliphotic sigil taken from Kenneth Grant's Night side of Eden.

"This is the Kala of the sorcerors, the Monnim who transmit the light direct from beyond kether to Saturn via the formula of duality. Duality is expressed zoomorphically by the twin serpents Od and Ob and by the ape- the shadow of the magus who,according to tradition, distorts and perverts the word of the Magus, thus making a mockery of his work, as do the Black brothers with their formula of duality.

This is evidenced by the symbols of Baratchial: two swords with inturned blades,suggesting intense concentration on the Ego as opposed to the self of all, flanking a ghostly face (mask) surmounted by a crescent moon.The sigil is a glyph of falsity and illusion reflected on the current duality that reveals the shadow of Thoth in the image of the Ape"

Od and Ob :joke:

I haven't heard of them before

Eta... Seems to reflect the theme again of crossing the abyss and sacrificing the ego for others, though here it appears to be qliphotically focusing only on self egotistical power and gain.

Tarot of Ceremonial Magic Study Group - The Magus

ravenest

ravenest

Zephyros

Abrac

foolMoon

ravenest

foolMoon

Zephyros

smw

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