Holy Blood, Holy Grail

(Note: I hope I am placing this in the correct forum. It is a discussion on tarot, though it is also tangiential in that it speaks of the Magdalene/Grail thing that has been recently enlightened topic)

Having finished The Da Vinci Code a few weeks back, I have been curious about the Holy Grail/Mary Magdalene controversy and the Catholic Church cover up. I bought The Woman with the Alabaster Jar, by Margaret Starbird, which I haven't read other than the tarot chapter.

I am currently borrowing the classic book on the subject: Holy Blood, Holy Grail. I am not even half way through the book and I am finding many mentions of names and places associated with the tarot: the town of Marseilles, the Sforza family, Eliphas Levi, Paul Christian, Papus, The Golden Dawn. This does not include other organizations, such as the Knights Templar, which have come to be associated with the tarot through decks, etc. Yet, the only mention of the tarot in the book is in reference to Papus' book on the tarot (the word tarot is not even indexed). Starbird's book makes an interesting theory on the tarot being a way for the Magdalene information being passed on through the tarot, and goes card by card through the Trump cards of the Charles VI deck.

I found that the evidence presented in Holy Blood, Holy Grail is amazing, especially that of the Priory of Sion, which figures prominently in The Da Vinci Code. The idea that this organization has existed for hundreds of years, and included as Grand Masters the likes of Da Vinci, Sir Issac Newton, Victor Hugo, Botticelli, and Jean Cocteau is astounding. Also, the notion that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus, and was a priestess in a goddess religion makes so much sense to me. That she is reduced to a converted whore by the church also makes sense, in that much of orthodox Christianity, particularly Catholicism, is so skewed towards the masculine, and has been for so many centuries, that the West has become entirely too masculine, resulting in centuries of patriarchal societies waging wars, promoting tyrannies, and otherwise engaging in bellicose behavior.

I have been lately, even before reading The Da Vinci Code, losing faith in Christianity, seeing how militant it is in even the simplest ideas. Christians, despite Jesus' messages of acceptance of all, seem to often feel that everyone must accept Jesus as savior in order to be "saved." There is an intolerance towards other religions, Eastern and pagan alike, that pervades Christianity. It is often labeled "Satanism." I still consider myself a follower of Jesus, but more a follower of his teachings. I even have stopped wearing a cross and have instead worn the fish symbol to distance myself from the centuries of church crusading, inquisition, and elitism.

Ok, here is my query. In looking at reviews of Holy Blood, Holy Grail through Amazon, I have found several who have severly criticized its scholarship. The main criticism is against its findings of the "Prieure documents," from which the authors had initially found most of their information regarding the Priory of Sion and the list of Grand Masters. The critics say that, since the publication of the book, it has been discovered that a man named Pierre Plantard was constructing an elaborate hoax and had planted those documents, and that, before his death in 2000, he admitted to the hoax. They discount all the theories on Magdalene based on the falsity of these documents, though I am reading how the authors themselves used these as a launching point, but have found other corroborating material to back up the existence of the Priory of Sion, and that it was most influential in keeping alive the truth of Magdalene.

Now I don't know what to think, and I don't have enough true historical background, or the time to research it, to know whether the critics are right, or whether they are Christians bent on discounting anything that questions the "ultimate truth" they believe in regards to Jesus. If there are people here more knowledgeable about the issue, I would like your ideas. I trust the judgment of my fellow tarotist.

I am not as interested in whether there is proof that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife, and bore his daughter, as I am that she was a representative of a goddess cult, and exemplified the feminine nature in us. I very much like the idea that uncovering her greater role in the Gospel might turn our Western society to a more balanced society, one which doesn't turn to violence and conquest in order to solve problems; one which realizes the importance of community, family and the sacredness and importance of the female role in society.

What are your thoughts?

Hi Khatruman!

I read Holy Blood Holy Grail when it first came out, and considered it a "fun ride". I take it all with a pretty large amount of scepticism, but find it fascinating.

I haven't heard the "Priestess" twist, I assume that is Starbird's. Personally, I'm much more likely to believe the Magdalene was married to Jesus than that she was a representative of a goddess cult. I strongly suspect that Jesus and his followers, including Mary, were Jews.

What is the argument that she was a representative of a goddess cult?

best,
robert

Due to the popularity of the subject matter, and the success of The Da Vinci code, there is a whole slew of new drek hitting the stands.

Some (I will use The Knights Templar in the New World – William E Mann as an example) are excellent examples of how not to write a book. Mann’s book is solid speculation. He compares apples to oranges and then asks about bananas. If you want to teach students how NOT to write, this is a fine example (such as ending a proof paragraph with a question-mark LOL).

There are a ton of them out there, speculation with a broad brush.

I will however recommend one for your follow up reading.

The Templar Revelation. Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince Touchstone Books (Simon and Schuster).

Khatruman I think once you read The Woman with the Alabaster Jar you will feel more settled.
She started out writing it to refute the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail.
She did her own research and had to come to the conclusion that the facts were all there.
Being a Catholic scholar this lead to her own crisis of faith and a complete dismantling and rebuilding of her beliefs.

I am not as interested in whether there is proof that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife, and bore his daughter, as I am that she was a representative of a goddess cult, and exemplified the feminine nature in us. I very much like the idea that uncovering her greater role in the Gospel might turn our Western society to a more balanced society, one which doesn't turn to violence and conquest in order to solve problems; one which realizes the importance of community, family and the sacredness and importance of the female role in society.

I feel the same.
I'm also very interested in knowing more about the tarot connection.
And the art connection is also facinating.
Sad that we will probably never know the truth, so many documents that might bring it to light were destroyed.

Makes you wonder what the world would be like if her greater role in the gospel had been honored.
It makes me a little sad actually.
But after reading the books I now understand the Ace of Cups in the RWS deck much better!

I am not full of knowledge about any of this but my gut feeling is that if you keep finding the same idea conveyed in art, poetry, music, the names of cities, shrines, and passed down for centuries in oral tradition there has to be a truth behind it.
And yes it is shocking for lack of a better word, to have to come to the conclusion that if this is so, it has been repressed and hidden by our religious institutions for centuries.
Makes me mad as hell actually.

You might want to look out for, and watch the Biography of Mary Magdalin on A&E I think they repeat it every Christmas, or Easter (I lean to Christmas)...
It turns out that Mary was a VERY common name at and around 0 give or take 30 years . And may be that the writers, and preachers early on confused several woman named Mary, and that people today still do through popular belief. I have not delved too deeply into the bible, but I think if you read it with that in mind it may be easier to seperate out some of them. Think of it this way go into a bar in Korea and yell hey Kim and see what happens...or Giovani in Italy, or James or Mike in Ireland (or my family reunion).
So if I remeber correctly. There was a Mary who was a prostetute, but that wasn't Mary Magdolin. Mary Magdolin was a rich patron of Jesus. The theory is that she gave a great amount of money to the cause, and that way she was with Jesus through his travels, and after his death traveled to France prostelatizing.

As for the Goddess worship, look to Mary (mother of Jesus)... Over the years she has come to embody the Goddess as Pagan/traditional religions were incorporated into Catholisism. Also look to Saints and Angels. The same thing happened with Buddhism and the Buddhisatvas (emalgums of traditional religion's Gods and Goddesses). Yes, it is a way to entice conversion. People are reluctant to change too quickly. In fact Buddhism in China started allowing people to eat meat for that reason....Ok that was the historian/anthropologist in me
Here is the Catholic (I no longer practice, but it is SO engrained in me)
Catholics do not worship idols (some people believe we do) but we do use statutes, and artwork in Chuch, It is a visualization technique to focus prayers, not unlike a pagan meditation. You can pray to the Mother Mary, or a Saint and ask for their guidance/help, or thank them for such service. You can light candles, breath the insence used in the church, and listen to the music...sound familiar?...you pick the Saint based on their attributes and your needs (or whatever is in the church) i.e. pray to St. Anthony for the return of lost items, and bury a St. Patrick in your back yard when you move into a home.
My mother went to a blessing of the rosery in Vactican City by the pope (the last one) and was told if you forgot your rosery at home it was ok, just think about it when he blessed the crowd...It is all about energy. The problem is that there are those that don't see the similarities, but not necessarily the priests/nuns. Sometimes they are more open than ordinary followers.
One last thought...at my wedding (at a Catholic church) and many others, at the very end we performed a veneration to the Mother Mary, which consisted of taking a nosgay of flowers to her representation, and having my sister-in-law (a trained opera singer) sing Ave-Maria, and stand and contemplate her... this is where the Goddess is. It told my sister-in-law (a non-Catholic) that it was a remnent of the pagan religions asking the mother for fertility in the marriage (hence the flowers)
I think this very much reflects Tarot because it is these attitutes that underly the creation and history of tarot, and just take a look at a deck like Golden Tarot and see how Kat Black was able to use these images to create the deck

sorry if it is long and rambling, I guess it is a subject I like to talk about and don't get much of a chance to do so

Umbrae said:

I will however recommend one for your follow up reading.

The Templar Revelation. Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince Touchstone Books (Simon and Schuster).

Click to expand...

Ahhh, that was the next on my list.

Unfortunately, our library system around here is from the stone ages, and probably only purchases bestsellers. Starbird's books aren't available, and neither is Templar Revelations. I figured I would put feelers out on ebay, et al, and see if I can get it cheaply.

Thank you for the advice..

At Borders I've seen about 4 or 5 books pop up recently to debunk the Da Vinci code including The Da Vinci Hoax and Cracking The Code... and I just kept thinking "Grow up, it's a book."

I think that it is a problem when people try to prove myths. I say stop looking for the real Atlantis, Noah's Ark, King Arthur and Troy. The recent attempts to prove that King Arthur was a real guy drive me particularly nuts. Yes he may very well have been an actual person who did some normal things ate meals and put on his pants one leg at a time. But I believe that the message of the myth of Camelot, Might for Right, the Grail and all of that is much more important than whether or not he was real. The real Troy... possibly one at which Aphrodite and Athena did not square off... what's the point in that? I think myths are supposed to teach us who we are.

So I think the more versions of the story we have the better. Mary was the high priestess of a Goddess cult... wonderful! A reformed prostitute... neat! A Warrior-Mystic from the planet Saturn who came to alter the human genetic code... hey sure!

Hi all,
Nowhere in the New Testament is there ever any mention of a prostitute named Mary! There was woman who was “caught in the act” and brought before Jesus and Jesus said; "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" (John 8:7). This woman’s name is NOT given anywhere in the Bible! Mary Magdalene was a totally different person. The church has either intentionally or unintentionally allowed these two women to merge into one. This alone is reason to be suspect of what the church is teaching or allowing to be taught. There are many books that back the theories of Holy Blood/Holy Grail and there are just as many that debunk the findings. I know for a fact that the church has not told the truth about Mary being a prostitute.

Awhile back someone on these forums referred to themselves as a “red letter Christian”. (In many Bibles the words of Jesus are in a red typeface.) “Read the red” was a comment that I thought made a lot of sense. The organized church is big business. It will do whatever it has to do to stay alive. Most fundamentalist churches are very exclusive. Jesus was very inclusive. Big difference! I saw a sign the other day that was a spin off of the “What would Jesus do?” statement that is big with so many born-again Christians. It stated; “Who would Jesus kill?” Makes ya think doesn’t it!