Astrological Symbolism

My approach is similar to the above. Leading me to the fifth house (children) with the Neptun in it. You wrote that it seemed as if the sheep were drowned. But the ruler here is Jupiter. I don`t think that Jupiter in Cancer in the twelfth house here indicates the cause of the death but probably the fact of being isolated. So as Jupiter is sometimes also attached to Pisces maybe the death was caused by Mars in 8, a broken neck or exhaustion.
Just a thougt, but did the other group see something in the water or mirroring in the water? (venus/moon Aquarius=Airsign, but also called the waterbearer)?

Ah, so this is a good example I guess of where the modern/traditional rulers thing starts to come into it. Caro, you go to the 5th House because Neptune is there, is this because you see Neptune as ruler of the 7th House because of Pisces? I would see the ruler of this house as Jupiter and go straight to the 12th House. Interesting that you ended up in the 12th house anyway. How do you see the 5th house as being related to this scenario?

Very good thinking sapienza and Caro you have not only identified the dead sheep but also some of the associated issues for Astrological interpretation. I'll give Cornelius' interpretation in a couple of hours as I have to pop out and then return to Jupiter - again very good thinking.

Cornelius' Interpretation

This is what Cornelius says:

'The ninth house, apart from signifying astrology itself, indicates higher meaning, prophecy and prophetic dreams, angelic visions and UFOs. If the appearances we had seen were true omens they might well be indicated by the ninth. The Sun, lord of the ascendant should also represent that which is being announced. Look at its power exalted in Aries and at the heart of the appearance on the 9th cusp. Mars, emphasised by the line of the nodes is lord of the ninth and holds the conjunction in his sign Aries. the Ram ruled by Mars in Water (Pisces in the 8th House of death): the dead sheep.'

'Mars also applies square to watery Neptune, lord of the 8th and god of the sea....Although we were three weeks short of Easter Day, this time of year with the Sun just past the Spring equinox carries something of the Easter symbolism. This suggests that the dead sheep is also the sacrificial lamb (Mars in Pisces square Neptune).'

I'll not mention the second incident at this time, it would be better to finish the first one, especially as he struggles with an interpretation of the second one.

I think most modern Astrologers would say that Cornelius gets it spot on with his symbolism. So could it be any better if we used traditional rulers orand a traditional approach?

I think the core is probably very much the same, whichever the approach you use but I'm going to argue that perhaps the symbolism is stronger using a traditional approach. This is of course highly debatable, which really is the point of advancing it!!

@ sapienzia: yes, i agree. i reflected on this chart to train my basic astrological skills.

you asked me if i went to the 5th House because Neptune is there.

no, I wasn't able and i guess I am still not to find the literal event, so as to say 'a dead sheep' (maybe one could find it in associating the Aries-sun (ruler of the ascendent Leo) with a dead sheep, but for me this is not possible.

So my thinking went alongside the sacrifial lamb immolated or sacrificed instead of a child or son. therefore i started with the ruler of the 5th house.

@ Minderwiz: thank you for starting this thread. Very interesting. There is a new book now on my wishlist

My Take

I agree with Cornelius on much of his interpretation - Aries provides the Ram (sheep) and it's ruler is in the eighth in a Water sign - death by drowning seems to be a good interpretation and fits the observed event. Mars is also very near the South Node, which is considered unfortunate in traditional Astrology, emphasising Mars' very poor condition. by placement.

My problem is that I use traditional rulers and so can't use Neptune as Lord 8. Moreover, Pisces is the sign of the deep sea, not the sea shore, which is Cancer. I would have to use Jupiter and where is it? Why it's in Cancer! Death (Lord 8) waits on the sea shore. Jupiter may in general be benefic but as Lord 8 he can be malefic and we would expect Jupiter to kill by excess - drowning is an excess of fluid in the lungs. Jupiter also trines (though out of sign the Sun/Mercury conjunction. and hence the Ascendant ruler. Incidentally Jupiter rules all cloven hooved animals, such as sheep.

So traditional rulership works better at symbolising the observed event (IMHO) but no doubt it could be objected that that doesn't mean it must better symbolise the religious dimension.

Well Jupiter is the natural ruler of religion, so that's a good start. I think the Easter mention is a red herring, Easter follows the first full Moon after the Equinox (both ecclesiastically defined, rather than astronomically) but the equinox itself symbolises the risen god , as the Sun returns from its Winter exile. The Sun is separating from the trine with Jupiter, indeed many traditional astrologers would say that the Sun's entry into Aries marked the end of the aspect, and the Sun conquering death (Lord 8) - This is further emphasised by the position of the Sun on the ninth cusp - leaving the eighth house of death.

I could go on, the chart is cast on a Saturday, the day of Saturn, and at the hour of Saturn. Saturn is the general ruler of death. (Cornelius clearly says the event occured on a Saturday, despite his annotation to the chart asseting it was cast on a Friday). So we could go on to explore the role of Saturn in the chart, near the North node of resurrection and ruling the Moon, Lord 12 and ruler of Jupiter).

I'll look at Cornelius' second event in my next post but I hope that I've shown that you don't need modern rulerships to reach the same interpretation.

I can see where he interpreted that now, its kinda crazy and I think I'm starting to see how they spot 'death' in a reading, its complicated to all hell, but it is there. Theres More?! holy craptastic Voyage (sealab2021 reference), where can I learn the traditional approach to astrology? I believe our ancestors had it right, and we've forgotten the awesomeness that was their methods.

The second incident

Just as a starter, I'm not trying to say that Modern Astrology doesn't perform adequately - I'm simply trying to show that a traditional approach can match a modern approach, in terms of symbolism. If you still prefer to use Neptune for Pisces, despite my arguments, then at least you've thought about it!

tThe second incident

The second group had a less dramatic experience around 3:17 pm, on the same day. They saw a flamingo!, perched motionless in a marshy field. Now flamingos are not native to the UK and if seen in the wild are likely to be escapees from a zoo or wildlife centre. The bird described was clearly 'large deep pink and very beautiful, with a striking mythological quality and a sense of stillness'.

Cornelius and his students thought that it too could be Mars (the red planet) but eventually decided that it was probably the setting Venus in Aquarius. The argument for this seemed to be that a) Venus was beautiful, or at least symbolised beauty and was in an air sign (flamingos are birds).

Cornelius admits that the symbolism is not as strong or 'obvious' as the dead sheep. So the issue really is can traditional Astrology help here? I'll give it a few hours before commenting but again I'd be interested in people's take. As Cornelius struggled to find any symbolism, statements of 'I can't see it' can be just as valid or more valid than someone saying that they see a clear symbolism. I must admit that at first reading, I didn't see that symbolism at all.

Difficult to find out what this flamingo means here. Aquarius-venus, seems to be a bit characteristical to escape from zoo or to leave the homeland.

Cornelius doesn't explain the groups thinking behind the choice of Venus so I thought about looking for an affinity ruler of flamingos but couldn't find any mention in Lee Lehman's 'Book of Rulerships'. I did however find the following possibilities:

Pink = Lilly seems to attribute 'white and red' to the tenth House. In this chart that's ruled by Venus.

All red birds - Mars (Al Biruni: though they discounted Mars)

Aquatic birds - Saturn or Mercury (Al Biruni) Saturn is the day and hour ruler, and rules Venus. Mercury of course is in the conjunction on the ninth cusp.

Flamingos are pink because of the large amount of carotine in their diets - without it the turn very pale. Carotine is associated with orange and carrots - again ruled by Mercury according to Lilly's contemporary, Gadbury.

Venus rules copper, a reddish pink metal - but whilst that is another tick for Venus, copper seems to be stretching matters and we don't refer to s as 'copper coloured'

All birds that aren't black - Jupiter. That would tie both readings together, as Jupiter is prominent in my interpretation of the first incident, but 'all birds that aren't black' is much too vague a description.

Solitary - Saturn

Peaceful - Aquarius or Capricorn (both ruled by Saturn)

What is the symbolism here - is it the flamingo or is it the peaceful, solitary, stillness? Both are viable options, which I think brings the choices back to Saturn or Venus, with Mercury as a third contender.

Venus is setting, though would not be visible in the sky. Saturn will rise within the next two hours and is conjunct the second house cusp of possessions - has that any significance?

Of course one radical possibility is to say that the second incident has no meaning at all and that the groups conflated it with the former and clearer symbolism of the dead sheep.