Lo Scarabeo Rider Waite Smith 2008 edition

Essence of Winter

I just purchased this deck (brown box) recently and am trying to figure out if it coincides with a particular original printing (Pam A, B, C, or D).

Does anyone know?

Someone told me there was a LoS deck of the Pam B deck and I am trying to figure out if this one is it.

I've actually been trying to figure out which RWS printings match up with those original printing designations (Pam A, B, etc...) and I simply cannot find a resource that mentions this at all, which surprises me.

Or are modern printings simply not repros of any of those decks?

Check the Sun card - it doesn't have the squiggle so it is likely to be based on a Pam B somehow:

http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/SunComparison/main-Sun.html

The colours aren't authentic, however, so it's a number of generations out.
 

Abrac

In 2007, Lo Scarabeo published a book entitled Twenty years of Tarot: Lo Scarabeo story. In it there was an article by Pietro Alligo in which he argues the Pam B/C decks were made first, and the black squiggly line on The Sun resulted from a crack in lithography stone, among other things. The LS Waite-Smith was published shortly after and, if Essence is correct, was based on the Pam B. That gives a little context to the whole situation.

Link to Aeclectic thread:

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=195091&highlight=lithography+stone

Link to article by K. Frank Jensen:

http://www.manteia-online.dk/waite-smith/alligo-cts.htm
 

gregory

In 2007, Lo Scarabeo published a book entitled Twenty years of Tarot: Lo Scarabeo story. In it there was an article by Pietro Alligo in which he argues the Pam B/C decks were made first, and the black squiggly line on The Sun resulted from a crack in lithography stone, among other things. The LS Waite-Smith was published shortly after and, if Essence is correct, was based on the Pam B. That gives a little context to the whole situation.

Link to Aeclectic thread:

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=195091&highlight=lithography+stone

Link to article by K. Frank Jensen:

http://www.manteia-online.dk/waite-smith/alligo-cts.htm
Indeed, but Jensen (I think) disagrees - and so does someone else, but I haven't time to find that just now...

It's not writ in stone, I think. (Pun intended :joke:) Truelighth is working on this; I will try and drag her over here.
 

Abrac

When I first heard Alligo's theory I thought it might be possible but new evidence has surfaced since then and I completely disagree now.
 

garmonbozia

Check the Sun card - it doesn't have the squiggle so it is likely to be based on a Pam B somehow

That's what I thought initially but am not sure that the Sun squiggle is a good artifact to look for in the LoS deck. LoS added their own line art to this card to fill in the void where they removed the "XIX" from the artwork to place it in the top border, so that specific area of the card is altered.

I really hate that they did this with the majors. The numbers on top of all the pip cards bother me as well.


Thanks for the links, everyone, about the printing order controversy. Someone had told me that the decks were not actually printed in the A, B, C, D order....but I didn't know this was something debated.

Having resisted for several years, I just recently started having an interest in the RWS deck...so much of this is new to me.
 

Abrac

garmonbozia, check out the links here. There are very large high-resolution scans of antique A, B, C, and D W-S decks. Compare Pamela Colman Smith's initials on your cards with the ones there. A is different from both B & C, and B & C are the same. It's very easy to tell them apart when you have nice large pictures to look at. I wouldn't worry about D or the A with Rose & Lillie backs. I'm sure it's neither of those. If it comes down to B or C you should be able to tell from the overall coloring. There are noticeable differences between them. :)
 

garmonbozia

I did as you suggested, Abrac, with the Sun cards.

Definintely not a "B" because the flag has the lines drawn down its whole length.

So, I thought it would be a "C" then. Nope. Too many differences. Shading of the horse is different, Still some lines missing from flag. Weird yellow piece coming off horse's mane is missing. Gray shading of the sky does not go as high on the LoS card. No blotches of green background behind some of the flowers. and there are some others.... definitely not "C".

Not "D" Either. D has the higher gray sky. different mane. green background blotches behind flowers...etc...

So, it's one of the "A"s, surprisingly.
Flag is more orange than red, so it looks closest to the "Roses and Lilies A" to me, with the sun squiggle removed and three rays added in where the "XIX" was removed by LoS.
 

garmonbozia

Ok, so I am not as disappointed as I was a few minutes ago. For some reason (RWS newbie here) I always assumed that the US Games "Original Rider Waite" deck I had was a "Pam A" deck -- I guess because of the Roses and Lilies card backs. I now see that (from looking at the Sun Card scans) that it is a "Pam C" deck (just with messed up coloring).

When I figured out that the LoS deck (brown box) I have was an "A", I thought it was the same as the "Original RW" deck. Glad they are different :)
 

Abrac

If you think it's the A you might compare the PCS initials in the lower right corner of each card to the ones on the antique A, that's a sure way to tell. The ones on the As are very different from the B & C. Check several of the cards.