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Where did Waite get these meanings?

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La Force  La Force is offline
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Thanks, I did read all that to, which put me on the hunt for the source. The meanings are very carotmantic and the 42 card method, remind me of a larger lenormand GT method. Still looking.

Seriously thanks you gave me added info to ponder, hmmm gypsy tradition, tea leafs, hmmmm

You have made good point (past cartomancers), such as german, russian, etc. (not french, italian, or english)
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Check this out:

http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/feb/21.htm

and this:

http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/Waite_Cards.pdf
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La Force  La Force is offline
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ETA: hmmm, pasted down from generation to generation hmmmm, So who did Waite know that wasn't French, Italian, English, that would pasted onto him these meanings?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Force View Post
ETA: hmmm, pasted down from generation to generation hmmmm, So who did Waite know that wasn't French, Italian, English, that would pasted onto him these meanings?
Cartomancy was very common in Waite's time. He says in the above essay on A French Method:

" It remains only to say that French cartomancy in the eighteenth and nine-teenth centuries set the fashion to the whole
English-speaking world, if not to Europe itself- that Alliette, or Etteilla, Mlle. Lenormand,
Madame Clement and Julia Orsini w
ere the prophets of all divination with all varieties of cards-
and that, except in certain secret circles, where there is supposed to be a special tradition, we have
done little more than follow them."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen View Post
Cartomancy was very common in Waite's time. He says in the above essay on A French Method:

" It remains only to say that French cartomancy in the eighteenth and nine-teenth centuries set the fashion to the whole
English-speaking world, if not to Europe itself- that Alliette, or Etteilla, Mlle. Lenormand,
Madame Clement and Julia Orsini w
ere the prophets of all divination with all varieties of cards-
and that, except in certain secret circles, where there is supposed to be a special tradition, we have
done little more than follow them."
Thanks for the links, very good read, I enjoyed.

I already have the french method

None of those match up with whats in the PKT when cross referencing, none <disappointed>

Still looking
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La Force  La Force is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen View Post
except in certain secret circles, where there is supposed to be a special tradition, we have
done little more than follow them."
Aha, now you may have hit on something. We know how vague Waite was in his book, right, about sharing secrets, loyal and all

It is very clear that those meanings in the back of his book and the 42 card method are no where to be found. Maybe these are the secret meanings and method. He just sneakily snuck it in, under diguise.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Force View Post
Thanks for the links, very good read, I enjoyed.

I already have the french method

None of those match up with whats in the PKT when cross referencing, none <disappointed>

Still looking
They kind of do for example:

King of Spades
"King. A man of very dark complexion, ambitious and unscrupulous."

King of Pentacles:
"A rather dark man, a merchant, master, professor. Reversed: An old and vicious man."

So we have a man of 'dark complexion' and 'A rather dark man' who is 'ambitious' and with Waite we have some professions. The first says he's 'unscrupulous' and the second that he can be 'old and vicious'.

It's not too difficult to see similarities. Like I said above it's probably an amalgamation of different cartomancy meanings he researched. Rather than one particular set of meanings. We already know from the essay he wrote that he had researched French Cartomancy and divination playing card methods. In England at that time there would have been fortune tellers easily had and perhaps he visited them as well.

He also says that:

"...Etteilla, Mlle. Lenormand, Madame Clement and Julia Orsini were the prophets of all divination with all varieties of cards..."

So he mentions "all varieties of cards" which of course doesn't just mean Tarot but Italian and French playing cards as well as the cards we use for card games without pictures. For the minors especially he may have picked up bits and pieces of information from 'traditional' cartomancy meanings from history and those common at the time.

In sum I don't think you are going to find one definitive source.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Force View Post
Aha, now you may have hit on something. We know how vague Waite was in his book, right, about sharing secrets, loyal and all

It is very clear that those meanings in the back of his book and the 42 card method are no where to be found. Maybe these are the secret meanings and method. He just sneakily snuck it in, under diguise.
I'm not sure what you mean. I think the PKT tells us bits and pieces about the 'secret meanings and method' and the actual Tarot meanings are all there just really obtuse. I think the rest was put in the back for fun.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen View Post
It's not too difficult to see similarities. Like I said above it's probably an amalgamation of different cartomancy meanings he researched. Rather than one particular set of meanings. We already know from the essay he wrote that he had researched French Cartomancy and divination playing card methods. In England at that time there would have been fortune tellers easily had and perhaps he visited them as well.

In sum I don't think you are going to find one definitive source.
I agree with Caridwen. Waite, as The Grand Orient, was well acquainted with those fortunetelling chapbooks. Raphael's The Book of Fate (many editions: I'm using 1887 version) shows the examples of the card-meanings, some of which are similar to those in the KT or PKT.

Ten of Spades -- Grief, imprisonment.
Nine of Spades -- A card of very bad import, foretelling sickness and misfortune.
Eight of Spades -- Warns a person to be cautious in his undertaking.

Ten of Hearts -- prophetic of happiness and many children.
Nine of Hearts -- Wealth and high esteem.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Force View Post
......It would be interesting to found out whether he made them up (mixing up meanings), like what LRichard suggested, or folksy, or from older source of tradition (playing card cartomancy)......
I don't think he made them up willy nilly. He apparently had a photographic memory, so his brain was sort of like a computer database. The meanings in PKT may be from his research at the museum library, and there could be other sources also. Waite did not seem to be personally interested in fortune telling for his own use, but the contents of PKT are by no means whimsical or arbitrary.
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