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Where did Waite get these meanings?

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Originally Posted by roppo View Post
I agree with Caridwen. Waite, as The Grand Orient, was well acquainted with those fortunetelling chapbooks. Raphael's The Book of Fate (many editions: I'm using 1887 version) shows the examples of the card-meanings, some of which are similar to those in the KT or PKT.

Ten of Spades -- Grief, imprisonment.
Nine of Spades -- A card of very bad import, foretelling sickness and misfortune.
Eight of Spades -- Warns a person to be cautious in his undertaking.

Ten of Hearts -- prophetic of happiness and many children.
Nine of Hearts -- Wealth and high esteem.
As an aside it's interesting to see how very misfortunate the Spades were. Having read playing card meanings myself, I'm sure they were the unluckiest of cards and the Ace I think meant Death in some circles.

There is certainly a lot of myth and history around the Ace of Spades.
Check these out:
http://www.psywarrior.com/DeathCardsAce.html

There's also Dead Man's Hand in Poker with the two black Aces and the 8s.


In the PKT however it becomes the best card of the minors and from personal experience has always been very fortuitous.

I also did some digging into traditional Cartomancy methods and came across this:

Aces - The beginning of a situation.
Twos - Direction the matter will take. May be a 1st meeting point.
Threes - The point at which details grow and the matter solidifies.
Fours - Foundation has begun. Roots are put down in order to build.
Fives - The first challenge or glitch in the situation.
Sixes - Issue changes & grows;If it stagnates, it will not continue
Sevens - Variety added, Scope of the idea/project may be expanded.
Eights - Evaluation period. People & ideas may be put to the test.
Nines - Moving forward. The issue is nearly completed.
Tens - Completion of the cycle, project, or issue.
Pages - Signify risks and messages.
Knights - Indicate movement and direction.
http://www.secondhand-souls-4occult.com/cartomancy.html

Very similar to the Tarot stages of the cards.

Meanings for Spades:

Ace- A difficult love affair. Emotional conflict, obsession, death. Things coming to a head.
King- A very dark-haired man, Ambitious, usually successful and an authoritative man.
Queen- A very dark-haired woman, can be seductive or unscrupulous. A widow.
Jack- A very dark-haired young person, a well-meaning person but immature, an unreliable youth.
10- Worry, misfortune. Imprisonment. Unwelcome news.
9- Bad luck in all things. Depression and low energy. Destruction, deaths. Extreme anxiety. Can mean delays or quarrels.
8- Trouble and disappointment. Plans go awry. Friends let you down. Cancellations.
7- A warning against possible loss of friendship. An unexpected burden. A warning against losses and sorrow.
6- A small improvement in the person's life.
5- Anxiety, setbacks, interferences. Happy home but interference from other people. Reversals and opposition but eventual success.
4- Business troubles, worries. Jealousy, illness, broken promises.
3- Partings, possible due to faithlessness. Be wary in partnerships.
2- Scandal, gossip, danger of deceit, separation. Difficult changes.

All very difficult and unlucky cards which I think is traditional.

It's really interesting stuff. I love the Cartomancy meanings and the traditional associations.

eta on further examination they also look like traditional Sword meanings don't they

Hmmm seems Spades are Swords so that would make a lot of sense and it would be the Ace of Swords as the traditional 'Death' card.

It seems to me as though Waite based the Minors and stages on traditional Cartomancy meanings such as Queen of Spades or Swords as the traditional Widow. That is reflected in the image of the RWS deck. I didn't realise how historical they are in that sense, I thought the deck was based on Golden Dawn meanings. Traditional Thoth books though give instructions for a Significator and various piles for readings which are traditionally from Cartomancy as well.
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La Force  La Force is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen View Post
As an aside it's interesting to see how very misfortunate the Spades were. Having read playing card meanings myself, I'm sure they were the unluckiest of cards and the Ace I think meant Death in some circles.

There is certainly a lot of myth and history around the Ace of Spades.
Check these out:
http://www.psywarrior.com/DeathCardsAce.html

There's also Dead Man's Hand in Poker with the two black Aces and the 8s.


In the PKT however it becomes the best card of the minors and from personal experience has always been very fortuitous.

I also did some digging into traditional Cartomancy methods and came across this:

Aces - The beginning of a situation.
Twos - Direction the matter will take. May be a 1st meeting point.
Threes - The point at which details grow and the matter solidifies.
Fours - Foundation has begun. Roots are put down in order to build.
Fives - The first challenge or glitch in the situation.
Sixes - Issue changes & grows;If it stagnates, it will not continue
Sevens - Variety added, Scope of the idea/project may be expanded.
Eights - Evaluation period. People & ideas may be put to the test.
Nines - Moving forward. The issue is nearly completed.
Tens - Completion of the cycle, project, or issue.
Pages - Signify risks and messages.
Knights - Indicate movement and direction.
http://www.secondhand-souls-4occult.com/cartomancy.html

Very similar to the Tarot stages of the cards.

Meanings for Spades:

Ace- A difficult love affair. Emotional conflict, obsession, death. Things coming to a head.
King- A very dark-haired man, Ambitious, usually successful and an authoritative man.
Queen- A very dark-haired woman, can be seductive or unscrupulous. A widow.
Jack- A very dark-haired young person, a well-meaning person but immature, an unreliable youth.
10- Worry, misfortune. Imprisonment. Unwelcome news.
9- Bad luck in all things. Depression and low energy. Destruction, deaths. Extreme anxiety. Can mean delays or quarrels.
8- Trouble and disappointment. Plans go awry. Friends let you down. Cancellations.
7- A warning against possible loss of friendship. An unexpected burden. A warning against losses and sorrow.
6- A small improvement in the person's life.
5- Anxiety, setbacks, interferences. Happy home but interference from other people. Reversals and opposition but eventual success.
4- Business troubles, worries. Jealousy, illness, broken promises.
3- Partings, possible due to faithlessness. Be wary in partnerships.
2- Scandal, gossip, danger of deceit, separation. Difficult changes.

All very difficult and unlucky cards which I think is traditional.

It's really interesting stuff. I love the Cartomancy meanings and the traditional associations.

eta on further examination they also look like traditional Sword meanings don't they

Hmmm seems Spades are Swords so that would make a lot of sense and it would be the Ace of Swords as the traditional 'Death' card.

It seems to me as though Waite based the Minors and stages on traditional Cartomancy meanings such as Queen of Spades or Swords as the traditional Widow. That is reflected in the image of the RWS deck. I didn't realise how historical they are in that sense, I thought the deck was based on Golden Dawn meanings. Traditional Thoth books though give instructions for a Significator and various piles for readings which are traditionally from Cartomancy as well.
When you look deep into it, its shocking. He does to some extend follow traditional cartomancy, he doesnt really follow the Golend Dawn. In the Epilogue, he says " I do not here mean that I am acquainted with orders and fraternities in which such docterines reposes and is there found to be part of higher Tarot Knowledge." and then says " But there are also things in reserve which are not in orders or societies, but are transmitted after another manner." last words " If he does, he will see also why I have concerned myself with the subject, even at the risk of writting about divination by cards." Pages 212 - 213

I have found he seems to lean towards Etteilla, Mathers, Traditional cartomancy, but with his own twist. It looks like in some ways he went off on his own tangent. He kind of created new meanings from what I can see, Why, I dont know but looking into it. This is why I posted this Thread to begin with.

Then its really shocking, when you look at the cards today, that are RWS based. Sorry but from what I am seeing, Tarot has changed, thanks Waite. , IMO

IE: 7 of cup / 7 of hearts

Book of Fate, Zolars, Foli
A faithless, inconstant friend who may prove an enemy

Waite PKT page 188.
Fair child, idea, design, resolve, movement

Waite PKT page 145
Fairy favours, images of reflection, sentiment, imagination, things seen in the glass of contemplation.

6 of Cups / 6 of hearts

Book of fate, Zolars, Foli
A confiding nature, liberal, open-handed, and an easy prey for swindlers, courtship, possible proposal. IMO this fits the card better.

Waite PKT page 188.
Pleasant memories

Waite PKT page 146
A card of the past and of memories, looking back as on child hood, happiness, enjoyment from the past, things have vanished.

Another meaning ( ? ) giving new relations, new knowledge, new environment, " and the children are disporting in an unfamiliar precinct." Where did this come from?



Spades = Swords
Clubs = Wands
Hearts = Cups
Diamonds = Pentacles

The Spades and Swords are the easiest to figure out, but when it comes to the Clubs/Wands becomes another story, and the other suits, thats when Waite goes off on his own with most of those cards

WAITE meanings page 188 - 190.

SWORDS

ACE - Great prosperty or great misery.
King - A lawyer, senator, doctor
Queen - A widow
Knight - A soldier, man of arms, satellite, stipendiary, heroic action predicted for soldier
Jack/Page - An indiscreet person will pry into the querents secrets
10 - followed by Ace and King, imprisonment, for girl or wife, treason on the part of friends
9 - An ecclesiastic, a priest, generally a card of bad omen
8 - For a woman, scandal spread in her respect
7 - Dark girl, a good card, it promises a country life after a competence has been secured
6 - The voyage will be pleasant
5 - An attack on the fortune of the querent
4 - A bad card
3 - For woman, the flight of her lover
2 - Gifts for a lady, influential protection for a man in search of help

SPADES (Book of Fate, Zolar and Foli)

ACE - It may concern love affairs, or convey a warning that troubles await the inquirer, or convey a warning that troubles awaite the inquirer through bad speculations or ill chosen friends
King - A dark man. Ambitious and successful in the higher walks of life.
Queen - A widow, of malicious and unscrupulous nature, fond of scandal and open to bribes
Knave/Jack/Page - A well meaning, inert person, unready in action through kindly thought.
10 - An evil omen, grief imprisonment.
9 - An ill-fated card, sickness, losses, troubles, and family dissensions
8 - A warning with regard to any enterprise in hand, opposition from friends
7 - Sorrow caused by loss of a dear friend
6 - Hard work brings wealth and rest after toil
5 - Bad temper and a tendency to interfere in the inquirer, but happiness to be found in the chosen wife or husband.
4 - Illness and need for great attention to business
3 - A marriage that will be marred by the inconstancy of inquirers wife or husband, or a journey.
2 - A removal, or possibly death

WAITE - Tarot meanings, pages 152 - 165

ACE - Triump, the excessive degree in everything, conquest, truimph of force
King - (Whatsoever arises out of the Idea of Judgement and all its connexions-power) command, authority, militant intelligence, law, offices of the crown.
Queen - Widowhood, female sadness and embarrassment, absence, sterility, mourning, privation, separation.
Knight - Skill, bravery, capacity, defence, address, enmity, wrath, war, destruction, opposition, resistance, ruin. ( There is therefore a sense in which the card signifies Death, only in proximity to other cards of fatality.)
Jack/Page - Authority, overseeing, secret service, vigilance, spying
10 - pain, affiction, tears, sadness, desolation. It is not especially a card of violent death
9 - Death, failure, miscarriage, delay, deception, disappointment, dispair
8 - Bad news, violent chagrin, crisis, censure, power in trammels, conflict, calumny, sickness
7 - ( The design is uncertain in its import, because the significations are widely at variance with each other) design, attempt, wish, hope, confidence, quarrelling, annoyance, a plan that may fail.
6 - Journey by water, route, way, envoy, commissionary, expedient
5 - Degradation, destruction, revocation, infamy, dishonour, loss
4 - Vigilance, retreat, solitude, exile, tomb and coffin
3 - Removal, absence, delay, division, rupture, dispersion
2 - Conformity and the equipose which it suggests, courage, friendship, concord in state of arms; NOTE: ( Etteilla - 1785 - 1807) another reading gives tenderness, affection, intimacy. The suggestion of harmony and other favourable readings must be considered in a qualified manner.
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CLUBS / WANDS

*Clubs:Ace- Wealth, health, love and happiness. A letter concerning money.
King- A dark-haired man, honest, open, generous and affectionate
Queen- A dark-haired woman, helpful, honest, attractive self-confident.
Jack- A reliable friend. A dark-haired youth.
10- Money from an unexpected source, good luck or gift. Travel abroad.
9- A new romance or admirer. Achievements. Don't be stubborn.
8- Opposition, danger or recklessness. Trouble in relationships, business and personal. Jealousy and greed.
7- Prosperity and success. Be careful of trouble coming from a person of the opposite sex.
6- Business success. Getting financial help.
5- Help from a friend or spouse. New friends and a successful marriage.
4- Changes for the worse. Lies and betrayal.
3- Marriage to a wealthy partner. Money coming from the partner.
2- Disappointment and opposition. Gossip.

BOOK OF FATE, Zolar, Foli.

ACE - Wealth, a peaceful home, industry, and general prosperity
King - A dark man upright, high-minded nature, calculated to make an excellent husband, faithful and true in his affections
Queen - A dark woman, with a trustful, affectionate disposition, with great charm for the opposite sex, and susceptible to male attractions.
Jack/Knave - A generous, trusty friend, who will take trouble on behave of the inquirer. It may also mean a dark mans thoughts.
10 - Riches suddenly acquired, probably through the death of a relation or friend
9 - Friction through opposition to the wishes of friends
8 - Love of money, and a passion for speculating
7 - Great happiness and good fortune. If trouble comes they will be caused by one of the opposite sex to the inquirer.
6 - Success in business both for self and children
5 - An advantageous marriage
4 - A warning against falsehood and double dealing
3 - Two or possibly three marriages, with money
2 - Care is needed to avert disappointment and to avoid opposition

WAITE page 186 - 187

ACE -Calamities of all kinds
King - Generally favourable, may signify a good marriage
Queen - A good harvest, which may be taken in several senses
Knight - A bad card, according to some readings Alienation
Jack/Page - Young man of family in search of young lady
10 - Difficulties and contradictions if near a good card
9 - A bad card
8 - Domestic disputes for married person
7 - A dark child
6 - Servants may lose the confidence of their masters, A young lady may be betrayed by a friend
5 - Success in finacial speculation
4 - Unexpected good fortune
3 - A very good card, collaboration will favor enterprise
2 - A young lady may expect trival disappointments

WANDS - Waite - pages 124 - 137, note: Waite does refer to other cartomancers, but doesn't name them. He will use words like readings, another account, attributions, and significations.

ACE - creation, invention, enterprise, principle, beginning, source, birth, family, origin. According to another account ( ? ) money, fortune, inheritance. Another reading predicts (page 187) calamities of all kinds.
King - Dark man, friendly, country man, married, honest, conscientious, honesty. News concerning an unexpected heritage to fall in before very long (Inheritance)
Queen - A dark woman, (Etteilla) country woman, friendly, chaste, loving, honourable. (also, (Mathers) love of money, or certain success in business.)
Knight - (Etteilla - Mathers) Departure, absence, flight, emigration. ( ? ) A dark young man, friendly. ( Etteilla) Change of residence.
Jack/Page - Dark young man, faithful, a lover, an envoy, a postman. (He may signify) - family intelligence.
10 - (A card of many significances, and some of the readings cannot be harmonized. "I set aside that which connects it with honor and good faith".) why, set aside? That was the original meaning. So he reversed it
The chief meaning is oppression simply, but it is also fortune, gain, any success, and then it is the oppression of these things.
It is also a card of false-seeming, disguise, perfidy
9 - Strength in opposition, delay, suspension, adjournment
8 - Activity, swiftness, messenger, great haste, great hope, speed toward an end, felicity, love.
7 - valor, disscussion, wordy strife, negotiations, war of trade, barter, competition, success
6 - (This card has been so designed that it can cover several significations) A victor triumphing, great news, expectation with own desire and hope.
5 - Imitation, sham fight, strenuous competition, struggle of the search after riches and fortune, battle of life. Hence some attributions (Etteilla) say gold, gain, opulence
4 - country life, haven of refuge, a species of domestic harvest-home, repose, concord, harmony, prosperity, peace
3 - strength, enterprise, effort, trade, commerce, discovery. This card also signifies able cooperation in business.
2 - (Between the alternative readings there is no marriage possible.)
(Mathers) On one hand, riches, fortunes, magnificence. Alexander amidst the grandeur of this worlds wealth.
(Etteilla) On the other hand, physical suffering, disease, chagrin, sadness, mortification. It looks like the malady, the mortification, the sadness of Alexander.
(Golden Dawn) here is a lord overlooking his dominion
( ? ) and alternately contemplating a globe
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I think you might find that the confusion of correlating the cartomancy meanings to the Minors comes from the confusion in the history of the cartomancy meanings. I think that both Mary Greer and Caitlin Matthews have blogged about this, but depending upon whether the system is French, German, Italian, etc, the suits sometimes are swapped, (meaning wands is not clubs etc), and the meanings are not consistent, whole suit to whole suit. You may find that some cards have simlar meanings, but that's it, you won't find a whole system that matches up. I haven't done that kind of research for years, but my impression is that Waite gave Pixie meanings quite close to those from the Book of T, and she illustrated them, using her theatrical background as a inspiration. And clearly, some of the Minors are based on the Sola Busca cards.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie View Post
I think you might find that the confusion of correlating the cartomancy meanings to the Minors comes from the confusion in the history of the cartomancy meanings. I think that both Mary Greer and Caitlin Matthews have blogged about this, but depending upon whether the system is French, German, Italian, etc, the suits sometimes are swapped, (meaning wands is not clubs etc), and the meanings are not consistent, whole suit to whole suit. You may find that some cards have simlar meanings, but that's it, you won't find a whole system that matches up. I haven't done that kind of research for years, but my impression is that Waite gave Pixie meanings quite close to those from the Book of T, and she illustrated them, using her theatrical background as a inspiration. And clearly, some of the Minors are based on the Sola Busca cards.
So basicly, Waite / Group members, created a hodge bodge of mixed meaning from different traditions and sources, to create a while new system. Called Book T.

Which changed the course for Tarot.

Interesting, but sad.

ETA: Come to thiink of it, this could also be part of the debate, between AC and Waite, being of the same group, debating on which system / tradition, not only issues in the Order, but setting up the Tarot.

End result, is they both went off on their own wild tagent, regarding the Tarot Meanings.


I'm thinking I will stick with the old, good faithful Marseille style decks. Cary Yale, Marseille, Minchiate, even Yes the Tarot of the Hidden Realm, I can even add in the Mary EL, these two decks follow the Marseille tradition, of suit + number. Also my playing cards and I'm set.

Also I should possibly get my hands on the Sola Busca cards.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Force View Post
So basicly, Waite / Group members, created a hodge bodge of mixed meaning from different traditions and sources, to create a while new system. Called Book T.

Which changed the course for Tarot.

Interesting, but sad........
That's not the way it goes. Book T is a document of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (HOGD), probably written by S. L. MacGregor Mathers. Among other things, it very systematically correlates the pip cards with the 36 astrological decans, and each card is given a title which describes the influence of the decan. Pixie did not have access to the document, but Waite probably described its contents to her, in order to help her to illustrate the cards. The card titles and astrological information are given in the first chart, which I made for my own use. For your convenience, I have included a table with only the titles.

The divinatory section of PKT was a compilation of historical divinatory meanings for the convenience of those who are interested in that aspect of the cards.
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Originally Posted by La Force View Post
When you look deep into it, its shocking. He does to some extend follow traditional cartomancy, he doesnt really follow the Golend Dawn. In the Epilogue, he says " I do not here mean that I am acquainted with orders and fraternities in which such docterines reposes and is there found to be part of higher Tarot Knowledge." and then says " But there are also things in reserve which are not in orders or societies, but are transmitted after another manner." last words " If he does, he will see also why I have concerned myself with the subject, even at the risk of writting about divination by cards." Pages 212 - 213
I've always seen the Majors as the cards with the most meaning and these are not part of the tradition of Cartomancy. These are Golden Dawn and keys to the system. The pips I see as a mix of Cartomancy and ideas from other people at the time such as Etteilla, Mlle. Lenormand, Madame Clement and Julia Orsini and other 'Gypsy' meanings common at the time. I can only assume they were brought together by a common thread and not just random imaginings.

I don't believe Waite created new 'meanings' and am not sure where you got this from. I have already shown you an essay written by Waite on French Cartomancy and others have talked about his research into the subject. He was deeply and well read in issues of the occult.

I don't agree that Waite "goes off on his own",he was part of a magic circle of scholars. I don't think he gave as much (magical/esoteric) importance to the minors and perhaps based his meanings on common interpretations.

In Distinction between the Greater and Lesser Arcana,Waite says:

"...their utter distinction from the Trumps Major is shewn by their conventional character. Let the reader compare them with symbols like the Fool, the High Priestess, the Hierophant, or--almost without exception--with any in the previous sequence, and he will discern my meaning. There is no especial idea connected on the surface with the ordinary court cards... We seem to have passed away utterly from the region of higher meanings illustrated by living pictures. There in was a period, however, when the numbered cards were also pictures, but such devices were sporadic inventions of particular artists and were either conventional designs of the typical or allegorical kind, distinct from what is understood by symbolism, or they were illustrations--shall we say?--of manners, customs and periods. They were, in a word, adornments, and as such they did nothing to raise the significance of the Lesser Arcana to the plane of the Trumps Major; moreover, such variations are exceedingly few. This notwithstanding, there are vague rumours concerning a higher meaning in the minor cards, but nothing has so far transpired, even within the sphere of prudence which belongs to the most occult circles; these, it is true, have certain variants in respect of divinatory values, but I have not heard that in practice they offer better results..."

Waite goes on to say and quite explicitly so:

" I shall recognize at once that the Trumps Major belong to the divine dealings of philosophy, but all that follows to fortune-telling..."

And finally,

"... it is only necessary to add that the difference between the fifty-six Lesser Arcana and ordinary playing-cards is not only essentially slight, because the substitution of Cups for Hearts, and so forth, constitutes an accidental variation, but because the presence of a Knight in each of the four suits was characteristic at one time of many ordinary packs, when this personage usually replaced the Queen. In the rectified Tarot which illustrates the present handbook, all numbered cards of the Lesser Arcana--the Aces only excepted--are furnished with figures or pictures to illustrate-but without exhausting--the divinatory meanings attached thereto..."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkt0301.htm

Quote:
Then its really shocking, when you look at the cards today, that are RWS based. Sorry but from what I am seeing, Tarot has changed, thanks Waite. , IMO
You know I didn't realise until you said this how much I love these cards. I love the Victorian background, the magic circle, the whiff of Empire and all the knowledge that brought from far off lands.

You have to remember that the RWS is the first deck to have illustrated pips. Other decks really concentrated on the Majors (I'm talking about Golden Dawn decks esp Mathers). If the RWS does indeed base the minors on Cartomancy and other elements such as astrology, then it's even more wonderful as that has a long history. I think the common thread that binds the minors is astrology.

So for example, The Queen of Swords which may (or may not) correspond to the Queen of Spades is a Widow. That is a traditional Cartomancy meaning. She is therefore drawn with a widow's bracelet. She also has symbols of Air in the butterflies etc and in astrology is Libra/Virgo (I think).

So Waite makes it very clear that he sees a massive difference between the Majors and Minors and no particular philosophical or higher meaning. He attributes common attributions, places a Knight in and illustrates them. The Minors are not Trumps and should not be looked upon with the same significance.
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Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
That's not the way it goes. Book T is a document of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (HOGD), probably written by S. L. MacGregor Mathers. Among other things, it very systematically correlates the pip cards with the 36 astrological decans, and each card is given a title which describes the influence of the decan.
Okay that will make more sense, being astrologically based.

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Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Pixie did not have access to the document, but Waite probably described its contents to her, in order to help her to illustrate the cards.
Well that explains a lot, well considering she didn't have the document, and sorta flying blind in away she did not bad at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
The card titles and astrological information are given in the first chart, which I made for my own use. For your convenience, I have included a table with only the titles.
Thank you, these graphs are much more clearer, and easier to understand. muchly appreciated

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Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
The divinatory section of PKT was a compilation of historical divinatory meanings for the convenience of those who are interested in that aspect of the cards.
I just finally figured that out after months of trying (Brain problem here, just a bit slow)
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Originally Posted by caridwen View Post
.....So for example, The Queen of Swords which may (or may not) correspond to the Queen of Spades is a Widow. That is a traditional Cartomancy meaning. She is therefore drawn with a widow's bracelet. She also has symbols of Air in the butterflies etc and in astrology is Libra/Virgo (I think)......
Interesting card. Indeed it is Libra/Virgo. She rules over the transition from summer to fall. It is practically a side view of Justice (also Libra), but without the scales.

I hope no one gets disconcerted if the Rider-Waite may not quite conform to what we may hope is true about it. Waite has an unusual way of expressing himself when he is trying to do two things at once: not to actually lie, but at the same time not to reveal information which he was under oath to keep secret. This may cause some misunderstandings. Of course, both he and Pixie were initiates in HOGD. He did not like Mathers' emphasis on ceremonial magic, but nowhere does he express disapproval of Book T, and he rigorously avoids even mentioning it.

Of course, the pips illustrations drew from various sources, such as Etteilla and Sola Busca. Mary Greer also has a theory that the pips were, among other things, used to illustrate certain Masonic and Grail legends. However, they seldom deviate very far from the Book T titles. This may be partly because there are similarities between the various different initiatory traditions, including those of Freemasonry, the Holy Grail, and the Rosicrucians.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Interesting card. Indeed it is Libra/Virgo. She rules over the transition from summer to fall. It is practically a side view of Justice (also Libra), but without the scales.
Is it a 'side view of Justice'? Then why does Waite say:

Quote:
... it suggests familiarity with sorrow. It does not represent mercy, and, her sword notwithstanding, she is scarcely a symbol of power.
Three of Swords is also associated with Libra so that would also underline the sorrow part and the rest looks like Cartomancy meanings.

I would say Justice is quite a big symbol of power

Quote:
Of course, the pips illustrations drew from various sources, such as Etteilla and Sola Busca. Mary Greer also has a theory that the pips were, among other things, used to illustrate certain Masonic and Grail legends. However, they seldom deviate very far from the Book T titles. This may be partly because there are similarities between the various different initiatory traditions, including those of Freemasonry, the Holy Grail, and the Rosicrucians.
I think the pips are as Waite describes in the PKT nothing more and nothing less
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