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Where did Waite get these meanings?

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Please try to follow my reasoning. I think there sometimes may be a disparity between the pip images and the PKT meanings because:

(1) The pip images are designed to illustrate the decans (and possibly other things).
(2) The meanings given in PKT Part III for the pips are traditional divinatory meanings.
(3) The traditional meanings are not necessarily compatible with the decan titles.

I don't think there is a problem with statements (2) or (3). If statement (1) is false, I would like to know which pip images are incompatible with their corresponding decans.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen View Post
Perhaps you need to have that conversation with the OP
I was ... or was trying to. When I dont quote someone, I use the convention that I am addressing the OP. If someone else decides to answer , okay , then I will answer what they bought up, by quoting them. I tried to clear that up by saying I was referring to post #31 .


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Originally Posted by caridwen View Post

and/or read the thread. As this has all been discussed.
I read the thread . I know its been discussed ... and explained .... but the same questions (and variations) seem to keep coming up as if those 'discussions' haven't sunken in. Again post #31.

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Originally Posted by caridwen View Post

See my answer above.
Ditto
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Originally Posted by caridwen View Post

Perhaps he was I have not read any of his biographies so don't know that much about him.
Okaaaay .

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Originally Posted by caridwen View Post

It may help to read the thread to get an idea of what has already been argued and discussed regarding this.
Again; as above. It might help you to re-read post #31.

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Originally Posted by caridwen View Post

No idea - it wasn't my question.
Well, you seemed to be jumping in and answering for who it WAS addressed to (the OP and also the OPer was the post before mine, anyway, you started responding so I thought you might have an answer ....

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Originally Posted by caridwen View Post
Not here no as it isn't relevant to the thread. In another thread perhaps
It might not be relevant but you bought it up ... so I was seeking a reference from you to follow up where you got your idea from ... another thread ? A link ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Please try to follow my reasoning. I think there sometimes may be a disparity between the pip images and the PKT meanings because:

(1) The pip images are designed to illustrate the decans (and possibly other things).
(2) The meanings given in PKT Part III for the pips are traditional divinatory meanings.
(3) The traditional meanings are not necessarily compatible with the decan titles.

I don't think there is a problem with statements (2) or (3). If statement (1) is false, I would like to know which pip images are incompatible with their corresponding decans.
Well, cant REALLY help here. Some do but some dont, and I havent listed them, just noticed. For example,many times if one looks up the meaning of stars prominent in a decan one gets a very good match with the minor cards meaning (and the decanic or 'face' meaning) ... in some cases I just cant find it corresponding ... or it seems the opposite.

I think (1) stands given the 'caveat lector' bracketed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Please try to follow my reasoning. I think there sometimes may be a disparity between the pip images and the PKT meanings because:

(1) The pip images are designed to illustrate the decans (and possibly other things).
(2) The meanings given in PKT Part III for the pips are traditional divinatory meanings.
(3) The traditional meanings are not necessarily compatible with the decan titles.

I don't think there is a problem with statements (2) or (3). If statement (1) is false, I would like to know which pip images are incompatible with their corresponding decans.
I'm not sure who this is addressed to. I understand that the pips come from a mixture of different sources. There is no 'definitive' source.

I think the pips correspond to GD decans as well as 'traditional' cartomancy meanings and other historical meanings. Many symbols come from the Book of T for example salamanders in the King of Wands and and sylphs in the King of Swords.
http://www.tarot.org.il/Library/Mathers/Book-T.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I was ... or was trying to. When I dont quote someone, I use the convention that I am addressing the OP. If someone else decides to answer , okay , then I will answer what they bought up, by quoting them. I tried to clear that up by saying I was referring to post #31 .
When someone is not quoted then it's very difficult to understand who is being addressed. It is perhaps more helpful to quote whomever you are addressing so for example, if you are addressing #31 then quote it.


Quote:
I read the thread . I know its been discussed ... and explained .... but the same questions (and variations) seem to keep coming up as if those 'discussions' haven't sunken in. Again post #31.
Then quote and address the points made in #31 rather than make a general statement.


Quote:
Again; as above. It might help you to re-read post #31.
My turn to roll eyes?


Quote:
Well, you seemed to be jumping in and answering for who it WAS addressed to (the OP and also the OPer was the post before mine, anyway, you started responding so I thought you might have an answer ....
It wasn't actually addressed to anyone...

Quote:
It might not be relevant but you bought it up ... so I was seeking a reference from you to follow up where you got your idea from ... another thread ? A link ?
I'm happy to discuss it in another thread on Masonary symbols in the Pentacles. There's probably one lurking around somewhere.
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What is OP?


There are so many question being asked, I don't know where to begin, some of your question are way over my head. can we please to it slow, one question at a time, please

I am now very confused, so confused, seriously I thought my question was simple, I had no idea what I was asking would be so confusing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Contradictory meanings of a card ????

I dont get this nor understand what the problem would be with that.

Unless one 'gets' this , one is going to have continual difficulties.
What I meant by contradictory is that he includes several different divintory meanings from different sources, traditions, that are not same. Which gets confusing.

In an upright meaning he will say it is this (positive meaning) then in the same breathe for an upright meaning (negative meaning) so your left scrating your head, is it a good card meaning or a bad card meaning.

Oh I'm so confused now forget.

I too much work for me to post, really, it take me an hour trying to explain myself. what take you 5 min to type take me 30 mins. it gets fustrating.

I am have difficulties, I have been struggling for months, main struggle is have have Memory problems. I need things to be simple, cause I am simple minded.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I was ... or was trying to. When I dont quote someone, I use the convention that I am addressing the OP. If someone else decides to answer , okay , then I will answer what they bought up, by quoting them. I tried to clear that up by saying I was referring to post #31 .




I read the thread . I know its been discussed ... and explained .... but the same questions (and variations) seem to keep coming up as if those 'discussions' haven't sunken in. Again post #31.


Ditto


Okaaaay .



Again; as above. It might help you to re-read post #31.



Well, you seemed to be jumping in and answering for who it WAS addressed to (the OP and also the OPer was the post before mine, anyway, you started responding so I thought you might have an answer ....



It might not be relevant but you bought it up ... so I was seeking a reference from you to follow up where you got your idea from ... another thread ? A link ?
sorry, it is sinking in, just slow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Force View Post
What is OP?


There are so many question being asked, I don't know where to begin, some of your question are way over my head. can we please to it slow, one question at a time, please

I am now very confused, so confused, seriously I thought my question was simple, I had no idea what I was asking would be so confusing
OP is the original post in a thread.

I think most of the conversation is between ceridwen and others. It often happens that the original post can open up technical topics which others are interested in. It means that you ask good questions.

Don't let it worry you. I think your questions have already been answered.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Force View Post
What is OP?


There are so many question being asked, I don't know where to begin, some of your question are way over my head. can we please to it slow, one question at a time, please

I am now very confused, so confused, seriously I thought my question was simple, I had no idea what I was asking would be so confusing
Sorry - Original Poster is OP so that is you

In my opinion your question was simple may I reiterate? Was there a definitive source to the meanings given in the PKT for the Minors? Is that the correct question or am I wrong

The Book of Thoth is by Mathers who was also a scholar at the time of Waite. I am a HUGE fan of Mathers

There's a kind of Golden Dawn Library here: http://www.hermetics.org/library/Lib...lden_Dawn.html

Mathers is in there and other works by Waite.

The Book T is here: http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/gd/t.pdf

It has tables of Decans for each card especially the Minors which is what is being spoken off here. A Decan is an astrological term for each of three equal ten-degree divisions of a sign of the zodiac.

Many of the descriptions of the minors and titles for the cards seem to be more Thoth than Waite. And it is being argued here that Waite did indeed base much of the symbolism of the Minors on these attributions. It's a very useful work if you are a Tarot scholar or interested in astrology for example it gives the Planets with their corresponding Minor cards. Eg Saturn governs: 5 Wands/3 Swords/10 Wands ...

ETA I'm not going to delete what I originally wrote but the Book of Thoth is actually an ancient Egyptian set of documents supposedly written by Thoth which is referred to by Etteilla who believed that is where Tarot comes from. In fact there is a Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot. There is also a Book of Thoth by Crowley which accompanies the Thoth Tarot.

However and indeed, Mathers wrote Book T (or at least the introduction) which is actually what I meant. It is the foundation on which all Golden Dawn decks are based and was meant to be used by all initiates into the Golden Dawn so they could make their own decks.
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