Spiritual acquisitiveness, cultural misappropriation (and Tarot decks)

What is cliche to me maybe a deep reverence to others

RiccardoLS said:

My main concern is where to draw the line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It can't be something clear, and it can't be something we all agree upon.
There can't be an answer, yet... sometimes you have to give an answer.

I believe that when two cultures interact, there is a mutual influence.
History sometimes likes to portray winners and losers, but there are more ebbs and flows than we can think of. As you conquer, you are conquered. As you seduce, you are seduced...

And, sometimes, I feel I need to draw the line.
And I'm not sure where.
The thread that started this one went on his own direction, but still the question opened there hasn't been answered. Maybe it can't.

Click to expand...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For me a tarot such as Roots of Asia went deep from a spiritual thinker's perspective exploring tarot and coming deeply from his beliefs and practices.
It was a successful mutual interaction of East and West, to me, to how I enjoy things related to that deck. But there are significant differences between a Buddhist Monk thinking for years of how to interact with a divination tool, one tool, and and the tarot editor who has to publish several tarot titles in a year...and that editor only has a few months to develop said tarots.

Thank you for trying to explore the topic.

The artist and writer of the Roots of Asia--his corner was Thai Buddhism and Insight Mediation and he studied tarot with Julia Turk, who did the Navigators of the Mystic Sea and had studied Golden Dawn work. His reflection of tarot was deeper, brighter and respectful than just a pretty art theme tarot--but he did 78 reflections in one tarot. He did not have to do seven-to-seventy tarot and oracles as the kind editor and author of this thread needs to for a major publishing house. His one tarot, Roots of Asia, works for me on multiple areas... to cover how I work with yoga practises and sometimes cultivate a more philosophical Buddhist framework.

His tarot worked for me while titles such as the LS Yoga Tarot and LS Samurai Tarot did not. And as someone who has done different yoga exercises with those who do it for good health stretching for years--I just found the Yoga Tarot as a pretty face. Others found it spiritual or connected deeper---I was not offended that Lo Scarabeo really tried to merge what they thought was yoga and tarot together. Yes there are yoga practises that go hand in hand or merge deeply with different spiritual traditions--but there are yoga practioners who can teach or learn the exercise and good health side of it without having to always attach it to one particular faith and philosophy. Yoga Tarot was a good try--just not my chosen deck to work with on these things.

And mildly, I will note the Samurai Tarot--I saw what I considered cliches and just didn't take with it. I know that if we wanted, we could honestly say our family did have blood, spiritual, cultural and actual connections and living traditions now and in prior generations to Samurai, Shinto, Japanese conquered (Naha, Okinawa) and Japanese (Kanagawa ken)
cultures. But I don't own that history...even though I've done music study that noted and felt it's context with a family past... and shrug, a Samurai Tarot might be a grand tool for the young martial artist who likes such things. Maybe years or decades from now, it would be sold in shops to offspring that find it a nostalgic charmer for it's fan-anime style of tribute. It just might not be my generational take or tool.

Hope those notes help.

Cerulean

hail

I said it before,, and I will probaly say it agian, as an ojbiwe native living on a reserve in ontario, who hasn't learned his language but to say thank you but also went to sweat lodges, and pow wow, and some native teachings.. well.
here french is forced upon in school one period at least in high school, and why not for canada is supposed to be a bilingual/multicultural country.
but for me I refused to be assimilated into the system and so I rebelled when i was a teenager. now i look back and it and say to myself heck i could of learned french !! ah well.

for me watching the native american tarots come out over the years. i see nothing wrong with it.
there is a great deal of differnce however between the native american tarot made by use games and the tarot of the southwest tribes, besides the artwork as well.
that is because each tried to be all encompassing when it is impossible to be because of the diversity between the history/(and present) of all the various tribes.

there are many things that define us from the history, and many things that do not , like I have yet to see any of us living on this reserve kill a buffalo. so if one was to include it into the native american tarot of the ojibwe canada.. it would be as a spiritual teaching and not a present reality.
i have yet to see any of us around here walk around in buckskin, or ride a horse (here we all use the cars ).
it wouldnt' pretty to see some natives sitting in a coach on a reserve house watching tv for nine of cups, with their baseball caps on or their hockey caps, or rather interesting i mean.

of course live on the reserve here might be differnt then say live on a reserve in sioux country in the states for the country govenrnments treat the natives a tiny bit differntly, for example not every treaty is the same.

so why am i a big fan of native american tarots ? , it is important that there be something out there rather then nothing in my book.
but where should the line be drawn ?

1. the best intent.. not for the tarot artist vision but for the people it is looking at..
2. that should come before the tarot artist vision.
3. the truth no fiction.
if it is going to show for example massacred of a indian village,, it should also show custer last stand.
if it is going to show educated cilvized natives it should also show the residential schools that got us here.
4. respect to both the traditions of the past, and the present.

I like the lakota sweat lodge cards there is lot of teachings in them, yet the sweat lodge there is differnt in ours over here,, we dont' have a water bearer, or a buffalo skull in front of our lodge.

I dont' have the new ls native tarots, to be truthful however this is talking about cultural misappropriation of tarot so I am speaking to that, i got the native american tarot, the vision quest tarot, the questor tarot, the tarot of the southwest tribes tarot, the medicine cards, lakota sweat lodge cards, and sacred path cards.

also native american is pretty bad term in my book, for everyone person born in america or canada is native to their now over the last centuries .

Speaking of cultural misappropriation, did anyone see the ice dance competition tonight at the Olympics with Russians, Dominina and Shabalin? Here's a quick rundown from the Washington Post.

I once awoke from a dream where a body of people had been peacefully and acceptingly conquered through culture rather then force of arms. It was strangely pleasant, it was not wealth or strength. It was learning and expanding their own horizon, not replacing them. It was a strange dream, and I had it after a bought of studying etymology.

Misappropriation and culture? I think not, when given and accepted freely. In tarot to accept a deck is to some degree to accept the culture of the deck at what ever level of ability the designer put into it. Miss information? Likely. But that is up to the reader to research. The cultural intent is, I hope, sincere.

Study language/words to get the true picture, not war. That's the real pattern ( Etymology) .That shows culture changes over time. Tarot art is vivid and captures a moment. True or not to your perception is in the artists hands and your upbringing and education.

ncefafn said:

Speaking of cultural misappropriation, did anyone see the ice dance competition tonight at the Olympics with Russians, Dominina and Shabalin? Here's a quick rundown from the Washington Post.

Click to expand...

I saw the controversy when they had worn them at another championship. What bothered me most was that they apparently said it was no big deal, they couldn't see what all the fuss was about; that they had done their research and it was only a bit of fun - something like that. THAT is what I'd call MISappropriation - using another culture for your own ends with no respect at all - and belittling it when the people of that culture are offended.

I am far MORE impressed by our own First Nation people welcoming them and being thoroughly dignified about it all.

Great thread Ric
I have read most of this thread but couldnt help myself but post what i thought before reading it all

I will be forever eternally grateful for a couple of decks in particular, that have been made and published..
I have always used the Medicine cards for my own personal journey, Why? because i can relate to the earth beliefs system on a deep spiritual level, If these were never made I would never have had a basic idea of what the native American indian had and their connection with the animals and land would ever have been like, I am grateful to be able to have the opportunity to share and experience just a small minute part of something special.It has taught me something of a different culture, and yet not so different.

I dont think it is degrading to make a deck revolving around a different culture, especially if it is researched properly and repected. and has been made by or helped to make by someone of that culture.

My ancestors were the celts, so i most definatley relate to the Druidcraft deck ,As i was brought up with the stories and the ways of the druid and the relationship with the land and its animals from a grandmother who wanted the ways passed down and understood to the next generation. Something that is not done much anymore. So i was very lucky

Again i am grateful someone took the time to create this deck.
I am also a Lover of the Buckland Romani deck. again because i can relate.

I am grateful to those people who do go out on a limb and try to make a deck that has a different cultural theme. especailly as said before it is researched , respected and or experienced first hand.
If these decks were not made.. I doubt very much i would be reading tarot decks.
To divine with a chosen tool I feel i must be able to relate and feel the cards,they are an extension of me. I am eclectic not belonging to any one belief system but definately earth based. If i couldnt relate to any Tarot deck and they all stayed traditional, I would have stuck to reading the Runes, and never picked up a Tarot deck.

I just read Obama's autobiography. There is a quotation in there from a Kenyan woman history teacher I felt was relevant here:

"I'm less interested in a daughter who's authentically African than one who is authentically herself."

I think if we take things from various cultures and genuinely make them a part of us, that is appropriation.

If we collect bits to try and be someone else or try to bolt things on to - I don't quite mean show off, but that KIND of thing; to "have a bit of that" - that is MISappropriation.

IMHO.